Leica Summilux-C Primes

[Derek Wan HKSC]

At the end give you some more nice fun with Leica lenses from tonight:

Shot on RED1-M with Leica Apo-Summicron-M ASPH 75mm f/2.0 @ 5.6, ISO 320, shutter 1/50.

Hi Sanjin,

How do you mount Leica M lenses on a RED One? Which adapter (system) do your use? Is every M lens compatible with RED camera?

Thanks,

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

The side record button and the leica dot look so purty together. :001_wub:

They look like they are getting along already. NOW SAMPLES!!! please...

Hi Sanjin,

How do you mount Leica M lenses on a RED One? Which adapter (system) do your use? Is every M lens compatible with RED camera?

Thanks,

The kind that made his Red One trade-in value kaput. :hand:

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi Sanjin,

How do you mount Leica M lenses on a RED One? Which adapter (system) do your use? Is every M lens compatible with RED camera?

Thanks,

A "dangerous" mount that's called IMS and with it on R1 officially presented here with many pictures I (finally) lost option to get EPIC-X with that R1 number I have.

But anyway I could get later just EPIC at the full price but not discount like other R1 users that didn't void R1 warranty.

So don't get IMS on RED1 if you would like to get sooner or later in EPIC-X upgrade program.

Every Leica M lens is compatible with that Leica M mount that is technically a sort of PL (positive lock) mount and has FFD exactly 28.8mm to the sensor/film plane.

Also you have to count that with R1 sensor you get about 1.69 crop factor related to FF35mm.

Some of wide angle rangefinder lenses have occasional vignetting especially faster one (Summilux-M) at wide open that could be an issue if you use them with shooting moving images.

So you must test and choose a proper M lenses that have speed that can cover your shooting needs.

For example if you occasionally shooting at F/2.8 for available light (can be doable with newer sensors with ISO 800) than the latest Elmarit range (f/2.8) aspherical are excellent choice

because even wide open @ 2.8 those lenses are pretty sharp at center/corners (especially on smaller sensors like a R1's) with a great contrast and beautiful neutral color (realistic) rendering.

Now I'm collecting Summicron range (f/2.0) any of the latest lenses of Leica M aspherical's.

Actually I'm going zig-zag route between the best and latest Leica M and discontinued older Leica R glass.

Hope that helps.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

The side record button and the leica dot look so purty together. :001_wub:

They look like they are getting along already. NOW SAMPLES!!! please...



The kind that made his Red One trade-in value kaput. :hand:

But has got an inspiration to make my R1 one of the most attractive digital acquisition systems available today and tomorrow.

Stay tuned.

 

[Derek Wan HKSC]

A "dangerous" mount that's called IMS and with it on R1 officially presented here with many pictures I (finally) lost option to get EPIC-X with that R1 number I have.

But anyway I could get later just EPIC at the full price but not discount like other R1 users that didn't void R1 warranty.

So don't get IMS on RED1 if you would like to get sooner or later in EPIC-X upgrade program.

Every Leica M lens is compatible with that Leica M mount that is technically a sort of PL (positive lock) mount and has FFD exactly 28.8mm to the sensor/film plane.

Also you have to count that with R1 sensor you get about 1.69 crop factor related to FF35mm.

Some of wide angle rangefinder lenses have occasional vignetting especially faster one (Summilux-M) at wide open that could be an issue if you use them with shooting moving images.

So you must test and choose a proper M lenses that have speed that can cover your shooting needs.

For example if you occasionally shooting at F/2.8 for available light (can be doable with newer sensors with ISO 800) than the latest Elmarit range (f/2.8) aspherical are excellent choice

because even wide open @ 2.8 those lenses are pretty sharp and with a great contrast.

Now I'm collecting Summicron range (f/2.0) any of the latest lenses of Leica M aspherical's.

Actually I'm going zig-zag route between the best and latest Leica M and discontinued older Leica R glass.

Hope that helps.

Thank you very much for the elaborate answer. I wish Allstar could do something similar so that we can mix (almost) all brands in one system.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thank you very much for the elaborate answer. I wish Allstar could do something similar so that we can mix (almost) all brands in one system.

Allstar can't make Leica M mout because it requires to take whole RED1 PL mount and that step can void R1 warranty just to get at Leica M FFD (Flange Focal Distance of 28.80mm).

Hope this helps.

 

[Cliff Hokanson]

Allstar can't make Leica M mout because it requires to take whole RED1 PL mount and that step can void R1 warranty just to get at Leica M FFD (Flange Focal Distance of 28.80mm).

Hope this helps.

Can you use the leica Summilux with the Red

 

[Andrew Rieger]

Can you use the leica Summilux with the Red

of course, you can use any pl mount lens with red.

 

[John Brawley]

Funny, $20,000 lens on $1700 camera.

That's exactly the way it should be.

The camera is a light tight box for holding the film or sensor. The lens is the soul of the image.

You guys make me laugh with your demands that Red somehow magically invent a way to make lenses of their equal with T1.4 just...because !!

Unlike DSP chips, sensors and electronics which are more easily mass produced and adapted from other fields, these aren't off the shelf commodity items. They are literally hand made.

You know before RED came along, Zeiss and Leica et al were making money from cine lenses. They still will. RED is a whole new market of filmmakers, and isn't cannibalising a lot of that higher end market. These would be rental only propositions mostly anyway.

jb

 

[Brian D. Goff]

Some of wide angle rangefinder lenses have occasional vignetting especially faster one (Summilux-M) at wide open that could be an issue if you use them with shooting moving images.
.

I don't understand. The RED sensor is s35mm, so how can the Summilux-M (use for FF35) vignett at all on a RED?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I don't understand. The RED sensor is s35mm, so how can the Summilux-M (use for FF35) vignett at all on a RED?

Steve Huff-Review 1 (tested on M8 crop factor sized camera):

"How about vignetting? I did see some vignetting on the 21 when shot at 1.4,

but only while shooting for my sharpness tests.

The wall behind the clock clearly shows the effect. Here is an example..."

Leica 21mm SUMMILUX AT 1.4 - SLIGHT VIGNETTING IS EVIDENT HERE.

LINK>>>



Ken Rockwell-Review 2 (tested on M9 FF35 camera):

"Falloff (darker corners)

The LEICA 24mm f/1.4 SUMMILUX-M ASPH has has lots of falloff at f/1.4, even with the lens profile selected.

It's still strong at f/2, and gone by f/2.8.

I've greatly emphasized it below by shooting a gray field and presenting it against another gray field."

LEICA SUMMILUX-M 21mm f/1.4 falloff on full-frame M9 at infinity, AUTO lens profile@ f/1.4.

LINK>>>

Even Summicron 35mm on my test with RED1 using ND 0.9 +Circ-Pola+ HotMirror Formatt filters showed falloff on the right size:

Shot on RED1 with Leica M Summicron 35mm f/2.0 ASPH @ 5.6, ND 0.9 +Circ-Pola filters+Hot Mirror filters, 320 ISO, 1/50 shutter, 5600K.

 

[Mitch Gross]

That is not vignetting. It is portholing falloff. This is a problem with shallow flange depth lenses (especially wide angle ones), a lack of telecentricity and electronic sensors that are effectively recessed buckets instead of surface excited. Film does not care about the angle that light strikes it as long as those photons hit the crystals in the emulsion. But if light travels at an acute enough angle then it does not make it deep enough into the bucket of a photosite to hit the electrical sensor.

Vignetting means that the light projection of the lens does not actually reach the area in question. This would mean darkening on electronic or chemical-based sensors.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

About Leica Summilux 21mm and 24mm ASPH review from

TAO of LEICA Analysis and Insight by Erwin Puts

who is also the official Leica online lens catalog writer and he recently tested the latest Leica lenses on analog M6, M7 and digital Leica M8, M9 & S2 cameras.

"SX21: vignetting

At full aperture there is a visible darkening at the edges of the frame. Stopping down to 1:4 removes most of the vignetting.
It is really difficult to give useful information about vignetting as the occurrence of vignetting depends on several factors:
the exposure itself, the characteristics of the scene, the characteristics of film and so on. In most circumstances the vignetting of the SX21
at wider apertures is hardly obtrusive and only occasionally a real nuisance. The vignetting you see on negative will be partly compensated
in the darkroom. On the M8, the software (when the lens detection option is activated) does a good job in at least reducing the darkening to
quite acceptable proportions. The published curves which show vignetting values of 2 stops are correct, but this amount of darkening is only
visible at the extreme edges.
Vignetting is stronger when making close up pictures. Wide open you see a brighter area in the middle of the picture. At smaller apertures
the density is homogeneously distributed over the whole image area.

SX24: definition and vignetting

The publication of MTF graphs is a fine idea when one wishes to study and compare lenses in detail. It is easy however, to fall into the trap of
attaching too much value to small differences. The MTF graph of the SX24 wide open looks not as good as the SX21 and extrapolating from theory
to practice would imply a softer definition and lower contrast at the 1.4 aperture. Below you will find two extremely small sections from the whole negative,
absolutely not manipulated: these are negatives as scanned with identical settings. The slightly higher softness of the image is just visible.
The difference is not that big that the choice between either lens should be based on the wide open performance.
At full aperture very fine detail is clearly rendered over a very large part of the image frame. Edge contrast of the major subject outlines is medium to high.
The edges and corners of the frame hold fine detail over a wider area than the SX21, partly due to lower level of vignetting.

Below section of 21mm at 1.4

Below section 24mm at 1.4

NOTE: The small differences in contrast as described in the text are lost in the reproduction on this website because of the 72 p/inch resolution.

Stopping down to 1:4 brings the contrast and detail definition to levels equal to the SX21 at the same apertures and due to the slightly larger magnification
(at the same distance of course) slightly finer detail is just detectible. Stopping down to 1: 11 improves the edges and corners as usual. Compared to the SX21,
the overall image quality is now very homogeneous over the full image frame from 1: 4 to 1:11. Vignetting is slightly higher in the SX24 images, but disappears
after stopping down to 5.6. A slight corner darkening will however be visible even at 1:11. (same with the SX21).

The comparison with the Elmar-M 3.8/24mm asph. at apertures from 3.8 to 8 is informative: At 1:4 the Elmar shows identical definition in the image center,
but slightly crisper definition in the outer zones till the edges and far corners. Vignetting is also lower. At smaller apertures this fingerprint holds and the Elmar
has just a fraction better definition and edge contrast than the SX24.
In the not so distant past, one could hardly compare with decency two lenses with apertures so widely different from 1.4 to 3.8 and only detect small differences.
In is certainly a tribute to the Leica designers that the new 1.4 designs can be approached as fully normal lenses without making reservations.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

LEICA Summilux-C™ lenses.

Ex-Panavision lens engineer designed Leica Summilux-C lenses

Finally we have got a full story about making Leica Summilux-C lenses.

Interesting thing is that optical designer is the same guy who was involved in design of

Panavision Primo Series lenses, a man from Scotland Iain Neil who is an international,

multi-talented optical designer, currently living in Lugano, Switzerland.

After leaving Panavision, Iain moved back to Europe in 2005 and provided optical services

from his company ScotOptix.

Iain Neil: “The other very big technical aspect, without getting into MTF,
is that these lenses were designed to perform extremely well
for not only 4K, but also 6K, 8K, and well beyond. Two major
things (besides distortion and a few other things) contribute to
picture quality when you talk about camera resolution like 2K,
4K and so on. One is contrast and the other is resolution. Most
cinematographers do lens tests by looking at a test chart that has
black and white bars. You can put up a Baltar, you know, a really
old lens from the 1950s, and you can say it’s a 4K lens. But there’s
a difference...

...

...“There was one snag. It was a major thing. If you look at the
trend in cine lenses in the last 20 years—the barrels got larger.
Everyone has lenses that have barrels with a pretty large diameter.
The main reason was for focus scale marks and how well spaced
apart they were—particularly in the range from 6’ to infinity.
The scale there normally is a bit compressed, so it’s a double
whammy. You need a big diameter just to get more marks. So as
a result, the lenses became bigger and heavier. If you make them
a bit too big, you reach a point where it’s even hard to get the lens
out of the lens case and you might need three hands to do a lens
change. From the user point of view, if it gets too big it almost
becomes unmanageable. So if you have these big, heavy lenses in
a big, heavy lens case, and you’re outside on location, climbing a
mountain…there are a lot of practical issues for wanting to make
the lenses smaller...


...


...Iain came up with another invention. “I arrived at a unique
way of solving, for the customer and the focus puller, a design
arrangement using the optics and mechanics, where from 6’ to
infinity we’re using half the available rotation, and from close
focus to 6’ is the other half of the travel. And that was our new
design, which even though the diameter was 20% less, the spacing
of the focus marks from 6’ to infinity is 60% greater than on most
other lenses. To achieve this kind of thing you need very good
optics and mechanics, but that’s why we put this strong team
together. We had much more than a hundred years of combined
experience on this team. The scale is even more expanded than on
the largest diameter lenses...

...

...“We were aware of the 3D trend, but this didn’t come up at
the beginning. It came up later in the design phase when we
realized that 3D was no longer a fad, but that the studios needed
something else. Smaller and shorter lenses, with a factor of about
two times less weight, and much smaller, are especially suitable for
shooting with two cameras on a rig.”...

...

..The key players were:

1. Dr. Andreas Kaufmann, a German businessman, Managing Directorof ACM, CW Sonderoptic, Chairman of Leica;
2. Christian Skrein, an Austrian businessman, Viennese photographer, filmmaker, collector, longtime friend of
3. Otto Nemenz, an Austrian in LA, President of Otto Nemenz International; and
4. Iain Neil, a Scotsman in Lugano, optical designer..."

Read more at the current issue of

Film & Digital Times 32 & 33, Leica Cine Lens Saga, pages 32-37 >>>

 

[Mickey Conway]

Here's some wise advise. Be aware.
Buy proven products.
MC

 

[Mickey Conway]

Truth is... history seems to repeat. Band pro video bragged and boasted about the Zeiss digi primes now it's the mystery primes. Really? And I know the Sony f35 yeah that's the future. Lol

 

[randywedick]

Hmmm.

"Bragging and Boasting" about non-proven products. I think if you ask our customers you will find that by and large they get fair information about our products from myself and others who work with me. I also provide demo products to our customers so that they can test and evaluate the units themselves and come to their own decision before they buy (or don't buy), which is really the only way to do it in my opinion.

Bragging and boasting does not sell high end lenses.

I see your lol and raise you another lol.

Randy Wedick
Technical Consultant
Band Pro Film & Digital

 

[Ketch Rossi]

LOL Randy, so true.. customer service offered when shopping for this type of Lenses, as I did for the Master Primes, is truly impressive, full on site reviewing and testing of each unit, and incredibly well trained Stuff to go with.

Even in all honesty I know find it difficult to spend this kind of money when I am now perfectly happy with the RPP's, some times, and more so now with the arrival of my two Epic-X cameras, I really fill like stepping back up to Master Primes and or now an other incredibly Gorgeous choice, The Leica PL lenses.

Since I will also be using the cameras for High end Photography work, and I have come to enjoy the very shallow DOF with 1.2's on the 1Ds, and super fast MF lenses with Hassy and just about to buy the new Leica S2 system, I'm seriously tempted in making a crazy buy with this new Leica lenses.

Besides the obvious ones, two other reasons as many other fellow DP's, but more for me because I'm also the owner operator and Photographer, I absolutely Love first, the fact that they are "ALL THE SAME SMALL SIZE LENGHT AND DIAMETER" this makes handling the lenses ever so easy, and also storage for them becomes muchh easier, as well as swapping lenses becomes fast and ergonomically pleasing to work with!secondly i Love the fact that they are so "LIGHT"!!

Some magic might happen with Pier59, and if it does, then.. well.. I could do something crazy ;~)