Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

[Sanjin Jukic]

Also maybe it's intentionally or not but at the ARRI's World Cup movie those soccer players wear the Argentinian National Soccer Team dresses

and we all know well that this year Academy Award (a.k.a. Oscar) for Foreign Movie went to Argentinians that shot awarded movie on RED ONE.

I could see it as a part of "battle" for the third markets...

Hopefully that this image is not disturbing to some of the conformists that are loudly talking about a sort of "adjusted and redacted Netiquette" here at the forum.

 

[Dwight Tudor]

That's kinda a stretch. Arri's company color is blue so that's probably why they wore blue.

 

[Quentin Brown]

If people aren't making money leveraging out the footage they own the copyright on, they probably just don't know how to approach putting it to work for them.

Would love to have some advice on this once Scarlet ships. Any chance? Maybe in a another thread or p.m.?

I really need a way to leverage, especially where I live where actual paid production work is very limited.

 

[Nova Invicta]

Just caught up with the posts about Alexa. I was at the DGA last week and the Alexa certainly created a buzz. I would go along with Quinten B Arri must be making Sony nervous NOT Red, the Alexa will make a fine competitor to the F900R, 9000 etc and it plays exactly into BBC thinking which is a tapeless workflow. Arri will definately add DNxHD thats the whole point of removeable side panels and as the D21 actually did more TV shows than features this makes more sense.
Another point that the Red folks miss is why shoot 4K / 5K if your going to compress to 8-10 Mbs on HD broadcast as indeed Ofcom in the UK expect your not going to get that information out the other side. The broadcasters are gearing up for HD 3D and are clearly not thinking about 4K broadcast anytime in the near future. The numbers of cameras required for TV far out number those for features so Arri maybe more shrewed than many think, dynamic range & color space are a better bet in this respect also.
Finally I agree Sanjin & Graeme need to get a life, competition is good it drives change and invention a one size fits all solution is not in the users interest Red dont have all the answers but have done a fantastic job of moving the game on and Arri have a track record of building reliable well made cameras with a dealer network Red can currently only dream of.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Nova, if you're going to compress heavily for broadcast you need to start with the best image you can. And starting with 4k or 5k will make for a better HD image through downsampling than starting with 2880. And the form factor / weight of Epic makes it better for 3D than Alexa. By using smaller pixels you get higher MTF at lower frequencies, and by using lots of pixels you get less moire and aliasing. Put the two together and you get a very pleasing image that produces better HD.

I agree that good competition is good. I'm very happy that Arri and Aaton have come out with new digital cinema cameras. It's superb for the industry and camera users to have great options out there to choose from.

Graeme

 

[Nova Invicta]

Sanjin
25 years ago up to date we have been converting Leica lenses for motion picture use, before you make a statement that they are better than most cinematography lenses I suggest you test them scientifically on an MTF bench, projector and shoot with them in the worst possible conditions all of which has been done. Whilst Leica lenses are very good they are not better than Cooke S4 /S5i, Zeiss Master Primes, Zeiss Ultra Primes, Panavision Primos which currently still rank as the best lenses for cinematography both mechanically & optically and from a servicability point of view, secondly when it comes to zooms in a PL / PV mount and you include Angeniuex & Fujinon the best comes down to an even smaller group of Angenieux, Fujinon and Panavision. Yes they are expensive but as I always state in optics you get what you pay for.

 

[Quentin Brown]

Nova,

Fun to see that someone actually bothers reading my posts occasionally. I'm sure I usually drivel on too much as I have no one around here to geek out about cameras with so I get a bit pent up!

Graeme,
I have to say thank you to you and all the RED team for the time you spend on these forums giving technical definitions and explanations that have helped me and countless others to learn this stuff properly.
Not only that but thanks for driving the future of Digital Cinema at RED.

RED has been so far ahead for so long in terms of RAW and resolution as well as all the little touches and features it comes as quite a shock to see the competition actually announce products that attempt to compete in those arenas. The revolution has changed into a general market shift.

 

[Quentin Brown]

Talk about wish fulfillment:

If you haven't seen it already Red announces the first of a series of proxy recording modules:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43613
Not only does the first one give you an onboard proxy recording option but video monitoring over wifi to laptops, ipads and iphones and live webstreaming! This is a huge game changer for RED.


There goes the Alexa workflow advantage.
Not to mention native R3d support announced for Avid and the new Premiere CS5 realtime engine + more being announced at NAB.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin
25 years ago up to date we have been converting Leica lenses for motion picture use, before you make a statement that they are better than most cinematography lenses I suggest you test them scientifically on an MTF bench, projector and shoot with them in the worst possible conditions all of which has been done. Whilst Leica lenses are very good they are not better than Cooke S4 /S5i, Zeiss Master Primes, Zeiss Ultra Primes, Panavision Primos which currently still rank as the best lenses for cinematography both mechanically & optically and from a servicability point of view, secondly when it comes to zooms in a PL / PV mount and you include Angeniuex & Fujinon the best comes down to an even smaller group of Angenieux, Fujinon and Panavision. Yes they are expensive but as I always state in optics you get what you pay for.

Nova,

you are absolutely right. When I need great PL glass for a certain job then I'm going to rent it.

Until then I can daily work and experiment with digital acquisition that using still glass because I can easy carry with me and also can afford it.

BTW, I can use the same glass on R1 and 7D to scout and explore locations at every lighting and weather condition.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Would love to have some advice on this once Scarlet ships. Any chance? Maybe in a another thread or p.m.?

I really need a way to leverage, especially where I live where actual paid production work is very limited.

Sure...happy to help. After Epic and Scarlet ship I'll post many of my concepts for how to use the cameras and make money with them. I've been posting ideas like that about Red One since long before Red One ever shipped.

One of the biggest challenges of these new cameras will be for users to either have or develop broad enough skill sets and attitudes to match what the cameras are capable of. Users with open minds and broad skills will really unlock the potential of these cameras.

You're doing the right things by thinking, planning, asking questions, and developing your skill sets. Once you get your camera you'll be ready to rock n' roll!

 

[Quentin Brown]

Thanks Steve,

So great to have industry veterans like yourself on these forums willing to help share their experience and knowledge and give others a hand up. I will have to do some searching through your previous posts (only 2718 of them and counting) for some tips you've already posted.

I just hope I can up my skillset, get my plans in place and get enough experience to be hire-able in time to ride the wave when it comes...

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Another point that the Red folks miss

There is a lot that you obviously miss, such as the 1080p output in EPIC.

Finally I agree Sanjin & Graeme need to get a life, competition is good it drives change and invention a one size fits all solution is not in the users interest Red dont have all the answers but have done a fantastic job of moving the game on and Arri have a track record of building reliable well made cameras with a dealer network Red can currently only dream of.

Really?! Are you serious? You want Graeme to "get a life"... Are you crazy?

Has Graeme been disrespectful to anyone? Ever?!

Why would we want Graeme to stop talking with us? Maybe you have a bigger network of gurus that you can consult with, but I don't.

And frankly, since you didn't know that EPIC already has what you were claiming that RED "didn't get", your gurus must obviously be steering you astray... So, you'd do good in spending a little more time with people like Graeme, instead of trashing them.

"Nova Invicta", if SJ is upsetting you, don't add flame to his fire!
'Cause you just came across like he does when he flames Arri...

 

[Steven Caesare]

Alexa short filmed in conjunction with ARRI:
http://vimeo.com/10831418
Behind the scenes:
http://vimeo.com/10819793

Let's hope the horrendous green-screen and VFX work was a by-product of a rushed 'camera-test' production - and not an inherent Alexa keying flaw? Looks like they had too much noise in the key and ended up with a lot of fringing. Can't say I'm that impressed with the consistency of the black levels in the grade either (watch it in fullscreen HD if you can).

Having said that, kudos to Stargate for cramming so many lighting conditions and variables into a short film. Good way to put a new system through it's paces.

Too bad they smoked/hazed up the night scenes so much... hard to really tell what the darks could have looked like.

The guys are extending form behind the column at 3:10 to have the smoke onward was entertaining tho'

-sc

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

with a dealer network Red can currently only dream of.

Yeah, we can tell. A lot of you are posting here trying to fight inevitability with misinformation.

Gotta love a company which puts virtually 100% of their resources towards development... (RED, in case you didn't know that either)

Just to be clear, I have loads of respect for Arri. Just feel people should treat RED with the same respect... it ain't no "scam". 'Bout time people got that through their thick skulls.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Sure...happy to help. After Epic and Scarlet ship I'll post many of my concepts for how to use the cameras and make money with them. I've been posting ideas like that about Red One since long before Red One ever shipped.

One of the biggest challenges of these new cameras will be for users to either have or develop broad enough skill sets and attitudes to match what the cameras are capable of. Users with open minds and broad skills will really unlock the potential of these cameras.

You're doing the right things by thinking, planning, asking questions, and developing your skill sets. Once you get your camera you'll be ready to rock n' roll!

Steve - this sounds fabulous. Maybe you have time to write a book!!?? Please! :thumbsup:

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hmmm...I like that idea Terry. Over the years I've written many magazine articles for several TV and film trade magazines. I like writing when I can find the time...

My approach to Epic and Scarlet will be broad and inventive - just as my approach to Red One has been. These new cameras will be loaded with potential uses and setups...

 

[Tim Morten]

Fun to watch all this play out... truly, it is a good thing that there is competition. I've given Arri a pretty hard time here, but I'm honestly starting to feel guilty: all the NAB announcements from Red (and there are surely more to come) make me feel like Arri is actually the "underdog" here.

Who will buy Alexa over Epic?

1. The Subjectivist - These are unreleased cameras, and the jury is still out on color reproduction and dynamic range. By all counts, the difference in color will be subtle (but does anyone really want to bet against Graeme when it comes to color?), and the difference in dynamic range will presumably be less than a quarter of a stop (both companies seem to be claiming about 13.5 stops as far as I've read). Even though Red trounces Arri on resolution, some folks will still express a subjective preference for Alexa's image.

2. The Blindly Loyal - Some people will remain convinced Alexa is the camera to have simply because it has the Arri name on it.

3. The Lazy Final Cutters - If you're a Final Cut editor who says to themselves "Transcoding to ProRes is just too much work for me!", Alexa has a workflow advantage (for now... Red could obviously release a ProRes module in the future, but let's stick to what we know at this moment).

4. The Misinformed - There are obviously people in the world who take marketing claims at face value, so even if comparative image quality remains equivocal, there will be some who are convinced Alexa is what it boldly declares itself.

There will certainly be people in every category, but there are SO many things in Red's favor: substantially lower price, substantially higher resolution, smaller form factor/weight, greater modularity, the magic of FLUT™, faster frame-rates, stills support, auto-focus support, native R3D workflows in Avid/PremierePro/Scratch/etc, h264 support, wireless streaming video support... there are SO many things that should be on this list that this is really only the tip of the iceburg.

Seriously, I'm starting to feel bad for Arri. I hope they don't wind up in the same financial situation as Panavision.

- Tim

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

(both companies seem to be claiming about 13.5 stops as far as I've read). Even though Red trounces Arri on resolution, some folks will still express a subjective preference for Alexa's image.

Which means ~14.5 stops for EPIC after downconversion to 2k, thanks to averaging out noise, lowering the noise floor even more.

By all counts, the difference in color will be subtle (but does anyone really want to bet against Graeme when it comes to color?)

You said it. And if there is a difference in color that is important to you, then let's be grateful that we are dealing in RAW! If you really feel you need to push your yellows this way or that way, you can! RAW data baby. Also, I bet it will become increasingly easy to do so via generating looks in (the FREE) Cine-X, which you can beam through Wi-Fi back into the camera, so that everything is shot with colors the way you want 'em.

SO many things in Red's favor: substantially lower price, substantially higher resolution, smaller form factor/weight, greater modularity, the magic of FLUT™, stills support, auto-focus support, native R3D workflows in Avid/PremierePro/Scratch/etc, h264 support, wireless streaming video support... there are SO many things that should be on this list that this is really only the tip of the iceburg.

So many it is hard to remember them all to list them properly.

And there are MORE announcements to come at NAB! <--- wild!

 

[Chuck Z]

Fun to watch all this play out... truly, it is a good thing that there is competition. I've given Arri a pretty hard time here, but I'm honestly starting to feel guilty: all the NAB announcements from Red (and there are surely more to come) make me feel like Arri is actually the "underdog" here.

Who will buy Alexa over Epic?

1. The Subjectivist - These are unreleased cameras, and the jury is still out on color reproduction and dynamic range. By all counts, the difference in color will be subtle (but does anyone really want to bet against Graeme when it comes to color?), and the difference in dynamic range will presumably be less than a quarter of a stop (both companies seem to be claiming about 13.5 stops as far as I've read). Even though Red trounces Arri on resolution, some folks will still express a subjective preference for Alexa's image.

2. The Blindly Loyal - Some people will remain convinced Alexa is the camera to have simply because it has the Arri name on it.

3. The Lazy Final Cutters - If you're a Final Cut editor who says to themselves "Transcoding to ProRes is just too much work for me!", Alexa has a workflow advantage (for now... Red could obviously release a ProRes module in the future, but let's stick to what we know at this moment).

4. The Misinformed - There are obviously people in the world who take marketing claims at face value, so even if comparative image quality remains equivocal, there will be some who are convinced Alexa is what it boldly declares itself.

There will certainly be people in every category, but there are SO many things in Red's favor: substantially lower price, substantially higher resolution, smaller form factor/weight, greater modularity, the magic of FLUT™™, faster frame-rates, stills support, auto-focus support, native R3D workflows in Avid/PremierePro/Scratch/etc, h264 support, wireless streaming video support... there are SO many things that should be on this list that this is really only the tip of the iceburg.

Seriously, I'm starting to feel bad for Arri. I hope they don't wind up in the same financial situation as Panavision.

- Tim

That was hardly considering both sides of the argument.

What about build quality and reliability? How often are there problems with the RED One when firmware updates are introduced and some accessories don't function properly? (Early battery charger, anyone?)

 

[Tim Morten]

That was hardly considering both sides of the argument.

What about build quality and reliability? How often are there problems with the RED One when firmware updates are introduced and some accessories don't function properly? (Early battery charger, anyone?)

Good on ya, Chuck, I feel better already. Arri found a customer! Chuck's buying an Arri everyone!

I'll let you know how I like my Epic-X.

Fun aside, Red has made HUGE strides in build and reliability, and to their credit, they picked up the tab every time that they fell short for me early on (audio for example). I can't think of another company that has treated me better. Firmware updates? They've added so many features I can't even count them... bring 'em on.

Best,
Tim

PS - Having not seen released cameras from either company, you officially fall in the "Brand Loyalist" category for assuming that Alexa will be better than Epic with regard to build quality/reliability. I understand that's based on your past experience with these brands, so it's absolutely your prerogative - just amusing that you wound up squarely in one of my categories.