Last chance for Arri?

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

personal opinion = hearsay :auto:

I've seen enough Behind the scenes in movies with either Panavision or Arri cameras in the background to know that it's a little more than mere personal opinion and hearsay.

 

[Fu Kiu]

The problem is that RED is pretty much a toy while Arri and Panavision are professional tools! In my country the RED cameras are used mainly by film students.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

Well a new red one with an M-X in it is hardly a toy, and neither is a non upgraded red one. Those kinds of comments from both sides are not helping at all. Right now (it seems) an M-X'ed R1 beats just about any other camera out there, for resolution, frame rates (at that resolution), DR, and noise. I think if you try one you just might change your tune.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

How in the world is a Red a toy?

What are the reasons?

I am all ears.

 

[Emanuel A.]

A general comment about the film industry equipment world.

I believe that any company hoping to survive in the new age of filmmaking will need to adopt a prosumer model. Even if it is one that has various levels.

If you compare the number of filmmakers today to 40 years ago to 20 years ago to 10 years ago to 5 years ago to 3 years ago (notice my numbres are shrinking), you will see an exponential growth in that field. Coupled with that has been a massive median drop in production budgets. Yes there are some of the most expensive movies ever made being made but compared to the overall number of productions (even professional ones) those are a spec on the meter.

This means that demand for equipment has grown actually. Which is good. But that means competition will grow, which means pricing will become more competitive - especially because the new generation is not working with the same budgets as the old generation.

The indie movies of 20 years ago still had 2 million dollar budgets. Those same level of movies are being shot for like 200,000 now.

So in order to lower prices to the right price point, the cameras will have to sell in mass.

the only cameras in the future which will demand huge price tags will be specialized cameras that shoot rarely needed things like super high speed. Everything else will succumb to supply demand.

This will be true of all equipment - support / lighting / grip.

Any company that doesn't acknowledge that they are now facing a much larger and more price demanding market and thinks they can offer just a brand name versus competition will fail.

that's my theory at least.

And I betcha it's Jim's too

Accurate insight on the industry indeed.

It is nice to read you here too, Mark. Since those old cinematography.com times...

E.

 

[Panos Bournias]

RED in Indonesia

RED in Indonesia

The problem is that RED is pretty much a toy while Arri and Panavision are professional tools! In my country the RED cameras are used mainly by film students.

Which country is this... Here in Indonesia we are renting RED cams since last April and the market grows every single month. 2010 started really crazy... Redcam is considered as a very serious tool and used for tv commercials, movies etc. as it should be in my opinion... We have been shooting with all the exotic lenses and accessories that... fit perfectly to our RED.
It has replaced the 99% of 16mm film prods and gains ground to traditionally filmed on 35mm productions- like cigarettes, cosmetics etc.
As for the D21, it is also available in Jakarta... At the same price point as the red, I doubt if they have 1/70th from our business... At the same price point I repeat this... Same stands for the F35 that is also available.
From what I hear, in China there are not enough RED CAMS to cover the demand. The same stands for Thailand...
So which is the country where the REDCAM is considered to be a toy???

 

[Tonaci Tran]

How in the world is a Red a toy?

What are the reasons?

I am all ears.

Avoid him Roberto..hes a troll.

 

[Fu Kiu]

How in the world is a Red a toy?

What are the reasons?

I am all ears.

Well....like I said : in my country RED is used mainly by film students.It would be unwise to let a proffesional camera on their hands because they could break it easily.
Also my cousin has a RED. He uses it mostly to film his cat and post the videos on Youtube. But for his job he uses Arri and Panavision cameras.

 

[Emanuel A.]

The problem is that RED is pretty much a toy while Arri and Panavision are professional tools! In my country the RED cameras are used mainly by film students.

Well....like I said : in my country RED is used mainly by film students.It would be unwise to let a proffesional camera on their hands because they could break it easily.
Also my cousin has a RED. He uses it mostly to film his cat and post the videos on Youtube. But for his job he uses Arri and Panavision cameras.

Aren't you the new Jim Murdoch alias by any chance? ;-) LOL

It wouldn't surprise me at all once this cinematography.com character in disguise now has posted he's used to deal with some asian country on a daily basis, where besides their western name in their western agenda as newly posted, «cats are reared for one reason: to be devoured at restaurants by customers who pride themselves on their exotic tastes» [LINK -- «reports below are (...) years apart. Nothing has changed»].

...the most recent plot. He's also known by his compulsive connections to the Panavision brand but that would just be the old known one.

(...)

Nonetheless and whoever you are, no idea how it is in yours, in mine we were used to deal with the industry standards anyway.

 

[Panos Bournias]

Well....like I said : in my country RED is used mainly by film students.It would be unwise to let a proffesional camera on their hands because they could break it easily.
Also my cousin has a RED. He uses it mostly to film his cat and post the videos on Youtube. But for his job he uses Arri and Panavision cameras.

And my brother from another father has a Ferrari and he is using it to deliver fish to the market, my friend... What a jerk hey?

 

[Joel J. Feigenbaum]

Well....like I said : in my country RED is used mainly by film students.It would be unwise to let a proffesional camera on their hands because they could break it easily.
Also my cousin has a RED. He uses it mostly to film his cat and post the videos on Youtube. But for his job he uses Arri and Panavision cameras.

Guys:

Just say the above quoted poster's name out loud. That says it all. Take his sniping with a grain of salt. He is not a serious poster. Nor can that be his real name.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Well....like I said : in my country RED is used mainly by film students.It would be unwise to let a proffesional camera on their hands because they could break it easily.
Also my cousin has a RED. He uses it mostly to film his cat and post the videos on Youtube. But for his job he uses Arri and Panavision cameras.

Still waiting for those reasons.

What (specifically) makes Red not a camera a wise person would use for a "big" job?

Also, how many people live in your country that you know all of them?

Guys:

Just say the above quoted poster's name out loud. That says it all. Take his sniping with a grain of salt. He is not a serious poster. Nor can that be his real name.

HAHAHA!!! That was good. Touche... :blushes:

Now let me even out the other eye with my titanium Epic. Which will of course be rolling 5k REDCODE RAW into CF cards with 13+ stops of DR at about 150fps, and not drop a single frame. :emote_happyhappy:

On the other hand... does anyone know actual financials for Arri? Is it public knowledge that they are not doing well financially? I mean, unless they are in deep financial trouble, why would a company like Arri have to worry?

 

[Tom Lowe]

The Alexa line of new cameras is being tested right now and I think it is a critical time for Arri because if the new cameras only match the RED MX sensors Arri is in big trouble. My friends in Germany tell me that Arri is very worried because they had not counted on the MX sensor being so good and noise-free.

I think pretty much everyone was caught by surprise on this... even us Red fans here.

Epic is 1/3 the price of the cheapest new Arri camera and the Arri is less resolution and less frme rates. Because Arri has lost a lot of accessory business to smaller companies they needed a win with the new cameras and it doesn't look like they will get it which spells trouble for them. I think Jim likes Arri so maybe it is time that Red buys them out?

This actually sounds like a very good idea to me. What would Arri as a company be worth, in dollar terms? Imagine Red bringing all those amazing engineers and technicians into their operation!

In addition, Red would instantly pick up massive institutional credibility in the cinema world, as well... not to mention taking out their main rival... all in one swoop.

The fact is that, yes, Arri will sell Alexa cameras for the reasons that have been discussed here many times... but this, to me, will simply be a matter of hanging on and "getting by" as a company.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Tom,

RED doesn't need «massive institutional credibility, as well», just massive production. So do we, as RED buyers/payers.

E.

 

[Steve Das]

On the other hand... does anyone know actual financials for Arri? Is it public knowledge that they are not doing well financially? I mean, unless they are in deep financial trouble, why would a company like Arri be in trouble?

Believe it's a private company so we would have no idea if they're
in trouble. Ultimately they are vulnerable just as company is...
..anyone who doesn't believe so only has to look at what happened
in 2009 in the U.S. as 2 of our 3 auto companies who had virtual
monopolies at one time were forced into bankruptcy and a couple
of large banks would have gone under but for the fact
that the government loaned them money at 0% and bought it
back at 4%..giving them a virtual money machine.

Apple had a close call in the early 1990's but made it...Microsoft
actually loaned them some money...Arriflex will survive most likely
but they will have to adapt to a new business climate. Now is
probably the most challengeing time for them and others in the whole
100 year history of film/cinema......Not a coincidence that
Volker leaves right now after 50 years at Arri. The USC coach
doesn't leave when they have a chance to win a championship but
rather when the team faces a rebuilding year(s).

NEW YORK – Arri president and CEO Volker Bahnemann will step down from his roles at the company this spring, leaving a 48-year legacy, 32 of which he served as CEO. His tenure included the initiation, development and refinement of numerous significant filmmaking technologies, including the Arriflex 35III, 765, 435 and 235 cameras, and Arri/Zeiss high speed and variable Prime lenses.
(1/12/2010)

 

[Tom Lowe]

Let's not forget that Panavision has been in financial trouble as of late...

 

[Alex Carr]

Arri isn't going anywhere.

 

[Felix K.]

Why would RED want to buy anything? To me it looked like they wanted to do everything from scratch in the last few years. Make it new, make it better and eventually present it with a cigar-laden grin.:sifone:

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Avoid him Roberto..hes a troll.

Hehe, what gave that away? Could it be that his name sounds a lot like "fookyou"?

and this thread is really pointless. Arri is doing just fine and their new cameras look awesome.