Stage three pays twice?

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

I always though stage 3 is my bet. This might change now. I think it boils down to these points:

1. The new sensor gives the RedOne an extended life as a backup body/second camera next to Epic until Monstro hits the market, an interesting perspective.

2. I purely guess here, but making MyteriumX available now may be a hint for an even more delayed EpicX. Before the new sensor upgrade program I predicted Epic to be available in Summer 2010, now I suppose it's going to be end of the year. This makes perfectly sense because Red learned their lesson that a beta-testing customer crowed is not a long-term business model. With Epic their competitor is Arri.

3. Stage 3 customers are the ones that stand on the end of the queue. So Spring 2011 would be not unrealistic for EpicX delivery. This is more than a year to go.

4. My understanding is that R3Ds generated by the new sensor cannot be processed by the current SDK. This is not the best news, because all of those (like me) who finally have a working workflow based on advanced third party tools are not compatible anymore, until the new SDK is implemented. This takes months, not weeks.

What to do?

Waiting. I'm in the 900s. My call will be probably in march for the sensor upgrade, hardly earlier. By then the new SDK is out and my application vendors can give me an estimate when the new SDK is implemented in new builds of their software.

Finally, I did not buy the RedRocket yet because I don't need it. I do RT 2K/1080p deliveries on tape already with current hardware, no RedRocket involved. Investing the planned budget for the RedRocket in the new sensor is much more meaningful if my tools can take advantage of the new SDK.

The least thing I can use now is a broken workflow. The new sensor brings us where we've been 2 years ago: a great camera with an awkward workflow. It took me one year and some money to sort this out. I'm positive that this will be much faster now.

And BTW, I don't rent out my camera, but solely use it for my own projects. Unfortunately I'm dead sure that my customers won't recognize the difference the new sensor is going to make, the pictures are great already. So now pressure on this front either.

Hans

All perfect points Hans.

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

I think the MAIN issue won't be the editors per se, as they will still be cutting in their format of choice (footage can be processed for them).

BUT.....the big question is, are all the final grading houses out there that are now up to speed in going back to RAW red files suddenly going to have trouble going back to RAW red-X files?? This would put a SERIOUS dent in the number of productions willing to shoot RED, as we'd be back temporarily where we were when RED first came out (needing to conform to the EDL then provide color facilities with DPX frames with handles - which KILLS the agencies timelines in commercial world).

Well, I say editors because often time - at least in the commercial world - edit houses often bid for eveything after hard drives are delivered. That is why they have tried to do RED processing "in house" and not spend that extra cash. This is probably the exception...

But good point Chris - the burden lies on YOU to figure out how to handle the new footage!

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

I honestly believe we give you guys more heads up on what is coming than anyone else in this industry ( and most others )... sorry you feel annoyed.

The news of the sensor upgrade program a couple of days ago was pretty "out of nowwhere" especially when the tattoo program was supposed to begin by the end of 2009. I would have appreciated an update on delivery schedule in order to process the definitive news of the sensor upgrade program so I can make a decision.

Just a little confusing.

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

let me clarify, it would put a serious dent in productions willing to shoot RED-X as they would rather shoot gool "old-fashioned" (haha) RED files until all links in the chain can work with the new RED-X files with equal speed and efficiency, thus making your current RED maybe MORE rentable without the sensor upgrade Dylan while you wait the six (or so) months for your EPIC upgrade. Just a thought.....

This is a good point Chris. But I am more interested in having that new sensor and fighting the good fight for it rather than accommodating old workflows.

 

[David (dudi) Namir]

All perfect points Hans.

This thread should be mark as Crucial Ordnance, Sticky or whatever.
Very good points, a brainstorming thread, I think I know which Red road map I am going with but I will keep following the posts.
Thanks Dylan for starting it.

BTW. Anyone should see if there is anything he/she can do or contribute to Haiti inhabitants who suffered a major earthquake.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Dylan, how long was your wait for the audio / iPin upgrade? It took around nine months from the start of the audio upgrade program until I received the email to send my camera in. (2435) At this time we know it is roughly a two week turn around from send in to return for the sensor update. We don't know how many cameras they can update at a time.

 

[Julio Quintana]

Come on Dylan. RED is spending extra time to get the DSMC system perfect. In the meantime, they are giving us the option of converting our REDs into the best cameras in the world for $4500. If we don't want that, then we still have the second best camera in the world.

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Dylan, how long was your wait for the audio / iPin upgrade? It took around nine months from the start of the audio upgrade program until I received the email to send my camera in. (2435) At this time we know it is roughly a two week turn around from send in to return for the sensor update. We don't know how many cameras they can update at a time.

Wow - my memory is not that good!

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Come on Dylan. RED is spending extra time to get the DSMC system perfect. In the meantime, they are giving us the option of converting our REDs into the best cameras in the world for $4500. If we don't want that, then we still have the second best camera in the world.

Like I have been saying - it is just information I want in order to make the best investment decision. The current information is that Tattoo would ship at the end of 2009.

And upgrading your R1 sensor is $5750, not $4000.

I am currently planning on Stage 3 - so no rebate.

 

[Julio Quintana]

Wouldn't it be more consistent with RED's policy up to now to offer credit of your camera ($17500) and add what you invested in the sensor ($5750) to the trade in deal.

Sorry. I guess I got the wrong impression.

 

[Billy Summers]

well..."everything is subject to change including delivery dates"

RED makes discoveries in the R&D process that they simply cannot ignore (and choose not to, thankfully), thus changing delivery dates.

As those discoveries are turned into realities, time is consumed during the creation process.

Writers say "writing is re-writing".
I believe it to be the same in "designing" a camera system.

Especially one that attempts to do everything we want it to.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

well..."everything is subject to change including delivery dates"

RED makes discoveries in the R&D process that they simply cannot ignore (and choose not to, thankfully), thus changing delivery dates.

As those discoveries are turned into realities, time is consumed during the creation process.

Writers say "writing is re-writing".
I believe it to be the same in "designing" a camera system.

Especially one that attempts to do everything we want it to.

GIve this man a prize...

Dylan.

No matter how you try to spin this, you are sounding more like an ingrate... especially the more you fuel this thread...

because INNOVATION is causing you these "annoyances" ... nothing else.

Be grateful they dont just kill the trade-in program altogether... as they are delivering FAR MORE than was ever promised when the original program
came out.

This is all OPTIONAL btw, not mandatory.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

The news of the sensor upgrade program a couple of days ago was pretty "out of nowwhere" especially when the tattoo program was supposed to begin by the end of 2009. I would have appreciated an update on delivery schedule in order to process the definitive news of the sensor upgrade program so I can make a decision.

Just a little confusing.

In all fairness to RED, I think they have been giving us the heads up about the R1 upgrade. Jim mentions it here on December 30.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39297&page=2

And I'm pretty sure I've seen Jarred mention it as well. The only thing that was missing was a specific date, and we have that now.

I'm not trying to bust your chops Dylan. I just think there's a lot going on these days, and it can be hard to keep track of everything, especially if you're out there working and can't be on the boards all of the time. Things fall through the cracks.

I think you will find that R1 with the original sensor will still be a viable option for months to come, as it will take time to transition to the new sensor. So, the question is - is this upgrade mandatory for you and your client base? If not, then couldn't you just hold off and wait for the Epic? That way you are only doing the sensor upgrade once. You trade in the R1 for $17,500 (let's not forget how crazy that thought is anyway) and get the new Epic system when your number is called. If there is demand right away from your clients for the new sensor, then it seems it would in fact pay for itself, not only financially but also in what you're able to offer. You'll have a far more sensitive camera with better read/reset times, better color science. Suddenly you're the guy around town that has a really great R1.

I'm as curious as anyone about the post implementation. For some of my client base, this is less of an issue. As long as I have a way to generate Full debayered ProRes files via RED Rocket, I'd be all set. For other workflows, I do have the same concerns as you guys. I'm hoping we'll see relatively quick implementation into other applications. I'm awaiting word from RED and third parties as to timeline for that. I'm sure more info will be coming out of RED as the upgrades begin.

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

GIve this man a prize...

Dylan.

No matter how you try to spin this, you are sounding more like an ingrate... especially the more you fuel this thread...

because INNOVATION is causing you these "annoyances" ... nothing else.

Be grateful they dont just kill the trade-in program altogether... as they are delivering FAR MORE than was ever promised when the original program
came out.

This is all OPTIONAL btw, not mandatory.

So asking where things are at is ingrateful? Hmmm.

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

In all fairness to RED, I think they have been giving us the heads up about the R1 upgrade. Jim mentions it here on December 30.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39297&page=2

And I'm pretty sure I've seen Jarred mention it as well. The only thing that was missing was a specific date, and we have that now.

I'm not trying to bust your chops Dylan. I just think there's a lot going on these days, and it can be hard to keep track of everything, especially if you're out there working and can't be on the boards all of the time. Things fall through the cracks.

I think you will find that R1 with the original sensor will still be a viable option for months to come, as it will take time to transition to the new sensor. So, the question is - is this upgrade mandatory for you and your client base? If not, then couldn't you just hold off and wait for the Epic? That way you are only doing the sensor upgrade once. You trade in the R1 for $17,500 (let's not forget how crazy that thought is anyway) and get the new Epic system when your number is called. If there is demand right away from your clients for the new sensor, then it seems it would in fact pay for itself, not only financially but also in what you're able to offer. You'll have a far more sensitive camera with better read/reset times, better color science. Suddenly you're the guy around town that has a really great R1.

I'm as curious as anyone about the post implementation. For some of my client base, this is less of an issue. As long as I have a way to generate Full debayered ProRes files via RED Rocket™, I'd be all set. For other workflows, I do have the same concerns as you guys. I'm hoping we'll see relatively quick implementation into other applications. I'm awaiting word from RED and third parties as to timeline for that. I'm sure more info will be coming out of RED as the upgrades begin.

I am primarily a cinematographer and will recommend the best format for the given job. Most of my work is NOT shot with my RED. Mostly film and recently some good good fun with an F23.

If I don't put the new sensor in my camera, while rental houses have them with the new sensor - well I am going to ask for the one at the rental house - because as a cinematographer - I want the best available.

It's looking more and more - thanks to the discussion that has taken place as a result of me "fueling this thread" that I will get the new sensor. And trade in at stage three.

But everything is subject to change... ;-)

 

[Steve Sherrick]

So asking where things are at is ingrateful? Hmmm.

Not at all, that's what this forum is for. :thumbsup:

I think what we are seeing is that when RED is ready with a product, then they announce a timeline/delivery schedule. RED Rocket was like this, the new zoom is like this. I think they want to be able to hit their delivery dates better than R1 days. My guess, when Scarlet is ready, we'll get delivery schedule. When Epic is ready, we'll get delivery dates. Until they are ready, we might not hear much so as to not build up expectations and then not deliver.

That's just me speculating.

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Not at all, that's what this forum is for. :thumbsup:

I think what we are seeing is that when RED is ready with a product, then they announce a timeline/delivery schedule. RED Rocket™ was like this, the new zoom is like this. I think they want to be able to hit their delivery dates better than R1 days. My guess, when Scarlet is ready, we'll get delivery schedule. When Epic is ready, we'll get delivery dates. Until they are ready, we might not hear much so as to not build up expectations and then not deliver.

That's just me speculating.

Okay - I haven't been trolling the forums every day - so maybe I missed something.

But the current announcement (on RED.com) for Tattoo says it would start to deliver at the end of 2009.

Now I am not bashing them for not delivering on this - I am simply saying - okay, that date has come and gone.

Now that you are offering an immediate sensor upgrade option for current cameras, wouldn't it also be good to give an update of some sort to say where Epic is at?

I am not asking for concrete dates - just some friendly info -

I.E."The ASIC is a bitch and this is taking longer than we thought - you'd be wise to get your camera upgraded to the new sensor until we sort out a new delivery schedule. Stage three is at least six months away from getting an Epic".

That quote is pure speculation but you get the drift.

That quote is also the place I have decided to operate from.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Well, TATTOO units are not out yet and I bet it takes 2 to 3 months to fully test and qualify the new cameras in the wild. Then there's Stage-2 and it will probably take a couple months to ramp up production and satisfy that group. So I wouldn't be surprised if the first Stage-3 customers are 6 months or so down the road from when TATTOO cameras are first released.

Of course, that is hypothetical guesstimation, but seems somewhat logical to me based on what has been said.

We also don't know just how long the sensor upgrade program will take. My camera is #1110 and I took delivery right about when my number came up. From the time audio board upgrade program started, it took about 6 months for me to get notification that I could send in my camera. The sensor upgrade will take my camera away for up to 2 weeks. The audio board was 1 week.

More conjecture here, but if past schedules are any indication and if the Sensor upgrade starts this month and TATTOO program starts by RED DAY next month, there's a good chance that my notification for sensor upgrade and my confirmation for Stage-2 could happen about the same time. Which in turn could cause me to hesitate... As much as I would love to upgrade and keep my RED One along side my new Epic-X, my future would be better served with the Epic-X and a couple Scarlet 2/3" cameras and then I start to anticipate the 645 / 617 for other projects that could use the large formats.

 

[David Battistella]

If Jim Jannard does not have an Epic on his desk (I assume this because all of teh M-X footage is from an upgraded R1), then i doubt the EPIC will be available to me #758 for at least 12 months.

I am guessing that it will be 12 months before I get a call for an EPIC. and even longer for delivery.

THe upgrade is probably worth every cent, but the "back to square one workflow" is of much more concern....

David

 

[Michael Hastings]

...

Dylan.

No matter how you try to spin this, you are sounding more like an ingrate... especially the more you fuel this thread...

because INNOVATION is causing you these "annoyances" ... nothing else.

Tim:

This has no affect on me whatsoever as I am very definite about doing stage 2, but your post is simply unfair to Dylan.

It isn't "innovation... and nothing else" causing these annoyances. It is primarily delays, perceived delays, and a lack of any reasonably firm timetable for the delivery on the epic-x deal that make it impossible - within normal business parameters - to make an intelligent decision. So he is left with "wild assed guesses" as to Epic delivery or "sentiment" in keeping his R1. Neither is good business.

For me it is very clear that the upgrade doesn't make sense unless I'm keeping the R1. But I don't have the clients that Dylan has - if I did I could see his dilemma. Right now his equation is ?X+2y+?=?, so it isn't unfair to ask for a little clearer picture if he is about to spend $5750 - which is over 80% of the price of the scarlet S35 brain and about a third of what he paid for the camera initially.

While I don't think a full $5750 credit toward trade in is fair to RED, I suspect a 50% trade in credit ($2875) could fit financially for RED and make those like Dylan a lot more comfortable.