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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Stage three pays twice?

No dilemma at all. Think about using half of the light in next months with the M-X. There is your savings. If you shoot daytime exteriors all the time, forget my comment.

Sorry about real name, it is stucked somewhere.

Aleksandar Colancevski
 
Tim Morten said:
Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I thought that those who upgrade the sensor can keep their R1, but still take advantage of the credit towards Epic-X. Am I wrong? Is there another charge there?

EDIT: Okay, never mind - I was clearly smoking crack. That's the Stage Two option, and it was slated to cost $19,500 plus the cost of the upgrade.
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We are all smoking crack trying to figure out what's going on. It is quite confusing
 
coki said:
No dilemma at all. Think about using half of the light in next months with the M-X. There is your savings. If you shoot daytime exteriors all the time, forget my comment.

Sorry about real name, it is stucked somewhere.

Aleksandar Colancevski
Click to expand...

I wish I pocketed the savings on lighting rentals from shoots! ;-)
 
Justin McAleece said:
It pretty much seems backwards to reward 2 but not 3 in my book.
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Not when you look at it from Red's perspective. I'm sure they would much rather you keep your R1 instead of trading it in. That extra $1250 credit for those who upgrade their R1 and then buy a stage 2 Epic should make it pretty obvious.
 
Curran Giddens said:
Not when you look at it from Red's perspective. I'm sure they would much rather you keep your R1 instead of trading it in. That extra $1250 credit for those who upgrade their R1 and then buy a stage 2 Epic should make it pretty obvious.
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I think you are right Curran.

If that is what's happening, I wonder what other unexpected disincentives to trading in your R1 might lie ahead. I have no problem with playing by the rules - I just want to know what they all are so I know how to proceed.

But everything is subject to change, so I'll bite the bullet I guess. :-(

Bottom line is the upgrade path just increased $5750 in order to continue using a "current" camera.

I just didn't expect that one.
 
Dylan...
Check out my post under the other thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=537151&posted=1#post537151
You hit the nail on the head when you talked about the uncertainty of the situation. Would you upgrade, only to get six weeks' worth of use out of the upgraded Red One before shipping it back?
Without a clear timetable from Red, it's hard to make an informed decision.
Cheers,
Harry
 
I've got an independent feature starting in May that has quite a few night exteriors and I'd love to have a higher ASA, but I'm reluctant to upgrade the camera at this time.

We now enjoy really beautiful images and a very stable camera and bulletproof post flow; what if the new sensor & board suffer some to the teething joys we worked around earlier on? I don't want uncertainty with so much on the line.

Unless something changes my mind, I'll probably wait and trade in for Epic. Of course we might have some "undocumented features" with Epic as well, but that's a bridge further down the road and the MX upgrade may help kill most bugs before Epic hits.

Just like Red, my thoughts are subject to change!

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
I took delivery of my cameras in August of 2008, so I'm guessing my turn for getting an Epic MAY come before my turn to get a new sensor... meaning I have no clue what my decision will involve and when. It may be moot.
 
Leo Ticheli said:
I've got an independent feature starting in May that has quite a few night exteriors and I'd love to have a higher ASA, but I'm reluctant to upgrade the camera at this time.

We now enjoy really beautiful images and a very stable camera and bulletproof post flow; what if the new sensor & board suffer some to the teething joys we worked around earlier on? I don't want uncertainty with so much on the line.

Unless something changes my mind, I'll probably wait and trade in for Epic. Of course we might have some "undocumented features" with Epic as well, but that's a bridge further down the road and the MX upgrade may help kill most bugs before Epic hits.

Just like Red, my thoughts are subject to change!

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
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This is a really good point Leo. The advantage of the upgrade path (before yesterday's announcement of the sensor upgrade happening NOW) was that the Tattoo program would beta test and we would have a pretty solid camera.

Maybe I will wait???
 
FWIW, the M-X upgraded RED One has been tested in the wild for some time now. It is also an upgrade to an existing system rather than a whole new camera.
 
Since no one from Red has chimed in to say that there will be an additional trade-in value for Stage 3, I'm leaning towards waiting as well.

My guess is that this is basically a chance for those who need the new sensor ASAP in order to stay competetive to get it at a price. Those willing to wait can save themselves this money. The question we're all wondering is "how long?", but I suspect that answer isn't definite... if there is a window defined, it will probably be clarified at Red Day.

At some point, the wait is long enough that it justifies paying the extra money for the sensor sooner... I'm not sure where that line is for me. Six months? Nine months? A year?

Like Dylan has said, I'm extremely appreciative of having these options... just wish I understood the timeline better.

- Tim
 
Yep. A lot of us are asking the very same question. . . "what is the timeline for Epic/Scarlet releases". . . because that really is the only information that will allow all of us to make an intelligent decision.

In my case, I'm starting a new feature in late August. I want to shoot it in 5K using an Epic. But if it won't be out by then, I'd be toast on that front and the upgrade would make more sense.

Until we get that timeline, the rest is pretty irrelevant.

Stephen
 
I'm also waiting for Stage 3. Works out somewhere around $18000.00 extra to have an upgraded Red One and the new Epic-X, which is a good deal, but I would prefer to put that $18000.00 towards a Scarlet FF35 with the new form factor and sensor.
 
I think it's obvious that Red wants as few people as possible in Stage 3. Note that the Red body only has a value of $10,500 (stage 2 vs stage 3). Then when you figure in the whole sensor upgrade thing it starts becomming really apparent.
 
I think the reason I raised this question in the other thread was to help people make an informed "business" decision. If the upgrade cost is $5750.00 the how many months (minimum) can I get out of this investment.

One month would equal a "vanity purchase"
Ten to twelve months would be nicer.

Not knowing the timeline would affect anyone's decision.

I have also raised the question of the number of R1 bodies that would be returned. Who is going to eat the cost of (up to) 7000 bodies which serve no purpose and need to be disposed of?

It's a tricky question, once the EPIC comes out and becomes the "new" standard (as rental companies are sure to make it) Then the R1 becomes "old" technology. I don't agree with this but it just most times ends up working that way.

This is why i'd rather this scenario.

Upgrade now.

Run the tatoo program for a year, make a bulletproof camera and POST PRODUCTION system, then release the EPIC to the masses (alas, we all can not be the chosen few few who can both contribute and afford the 28K for membership in that program) but we can all beneift from a long, and excellent EPIC beta program.

In a year, give us the option for whatever stage and I am pretty sure by then most people will hang on to the RED One and many will have gotten three years out of it by then and maybe another 1 or 2 with a sensor that matches the NEW (EPIC) baby in the house. Thereby solving the 7000 bodie issue.

David
 
Timelines really matter in this decision. Either you invest an additional 8500 to keep your working Red body and an additional 5500 to get the upgrade done and have a working 2nd body right away or you wait and invest those savings into a complete S35 Scarlet as a second body. Negatives to the second option are longer wait times (how long, no one knows unfortunately) and an unproven camera system as your backup (but you also waited longer for it so it would now be more proven) and positives are that you invest your money into the new upgradeable brain camera line. Positives of keeping your Red is that you get the new technology faster and you get to keep your already paid off camera for sentimental value and solid b-cam/backup...
 
David Battistella said:
I have also raised the question of the number of R1 bodies that would be returned. Who is going to eat the cost of (up to) 7000 bodies which serve no purpose and need to be disposed of?

Upgrade now.

Run the tatoo program for a year, make a bulletproof camera and POST PRODUCTION system, then release the EPIC to the masses (alas, we all can not be the chosen few few who can both contribute and afford the 28K for membership in that program) but we can all beneift from a long, and excellent EPIC beta program.

In a year, give us the option for whatever stage and I am pretty sure by then most people will hang on to the RED One and many will have gotten three years out of it by then and maybe another 1 or 2 with a sensor that matches the NEW (EPIC) baby in the house. Thereby solving the 7000 bodie issue.

David
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I agree with David. I think the last thing Red wants is 7000 returned Red Ones. Seem to be sweetening the pot to go for stage 2 and trying to deter from stage 3.

As you say Dylan, there are so many variables it becomes difficult to plan, and in this business, it's all about planning.

Sure I want an Epic now. I would also like an upgraded Red now. But if my Red becomes just another technology sitting on my camera shelf because Scarlet suddenly makes it lose all value, this becomes a tough pill to swallow.

Perhaps David's plan of Tattoo for an extended period is good. Sorry to say though, if I do go for stage 2 and upgraded my Red, I'd also like to see Scarlet S35 pushed back so I can validate the stage 2 with an upgrade. Although (before people start flaming) the shooter-within would also like the Scarlet as a B-cam to the Epic as soon as possible too (especially if it came out the same time as stage 3).

Loving this ride and it truly has been fun (despite the agony of post never quite catching up to the technology), but things could get messy if we all aren't careful (both Red and the customers). I think Red has been wonderful throughout this process. They have listened to the customer, they have responded to the issues and fortunately the changes keep changing - which usually adds up to something better for the customer in the end.

But in the end - I guess rendering obsolescence obsolete is a rather difficult goal to achieve.
 
Well Said HD,

One thing that is hard to determine is which camera people want the most. The 2/3inch scarlett shooting 3K looks like the documentary camera of the future, reminding me of the 16mm revolution in the 60's, hich quality, compact, right price, etc. Does tha mean I don't want R1 or Epic for quality ad DOF.

But how many camera's does one want to own?

I remember SONY put out the first DV Camera PDF-100. The image quality really did rival the analog SP betacams of the time. You had some very upset owner operators with large investments. The next camera the PDF 150 wasn't quite as sharp as the first gen one.

AVID did it too, released a "handcuffed" AVID to widen the user base and it pissed everyone off.

What happens if a 2/3 inch Scarlett with mini primes looks freaking unreal and shoots just slightly larger than 2K (a format most people are very happy with right now).

It's nice to have these choices, but the R1 with an MX might just be the perfect camera for a good long time.

Until it is rendered obsolete.

David
 
And hopefully they are listening to this and other threads and give us some sort of concrete (woops -everything is subject o change!) timeline so we can decide wether or not to upgrade our R1's or wait for the Epic. There is a concrete plan for the sensor upgrade program - why not the Epic?

If there are stumbling blocks - we are big kids - let us know. If it is going to be another year, this would be useful information to have. Something is up, because initial estimates were that we would have our Epic's by now.

I have no problem with this.

I would just prefer full disclosure.

Wasn't Tattoo supposed to be available "this year" - meaning 2009?

Announcing a concrete sensor upgrade program with no word on Epic just raises a cloud of dust.

I am reluctantly willing to pay twice - but as David suggested - not if it is only going to be for a few months. Will I get Epic in the summer? Well I might not upgrade my R1. Will it be the fall? Well then I will upgrade.
 
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