Recommended Mac-Compatible SCSI and SAS Tape HBA solutions

[Andrae Palmer]

To whether having RAID on the HBA (hardware based) versus just using the disks as a JBOD, by implementing the disks as a RAID array using ATTO's RAID methodologies will give you a very high speed I/O capability that you won't see with separate spindles in a JBOD arrangement.

To your workflow speed, GPU offloading may assist in the actual data manipulation, but the actual disk I/O is going to be strictly balanced between your host and the I/O HBA, so regardless of the rendering boost the GPU might provide, your bottleneck is going to be your disk I/O. Faster disk I/O is gong to translate to a much more cmfortable workflow for the long haul.

HTH,
Tim

Tim thanks for your feedback. I am not sure what the rep meant by ATTO R380 not supporting Wide Ports. I was specific to ask him if the ATTO R380 supported any type of Wide Ports and he said no. Very adamantly recommended the LSI card.

As far as hardware RAID... i didn't mean running it as a JBOD but using the LSI software RAID utility to handle that function. I pretty much had my mind set on getting the ATTO R380 until the rep was so adamant about the LSI HBA saying it would give me a speed advantage. I don't know what type of issues I may run into with a software based RAID HBA. I would like any opinions on this.

 

[Tim Jones]

3Gb is 3Gb...

3Gb is 3Gb...

When it comes to where the RAID control is maintained, all I can say is that HW RAID will almost always have a serious performance improvement over software RAID - unless the system running the software is dedicated to managing the RAID (in that case, the system's the H/W RAID controller :ack2: ). As for the performance of the LSI versus the ATTO, ATTO has proven to us (and our customers) many times over that their solutions in either single channel or multi-channel aggregate modes offer the best performance available on a given system for disk I/O.

As for which is best for you, Keep in mind that the LSI has issues with large block sizes (over 1MB) when performing I/O, so you will see better performance to tape with the ATTO if that matters.

Now, when ATTO releases their R6XX series (6Gb/channel) - that's where the real disk performance should be measured!

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Mike Thurston from Enhanced Technologies just signed up on REDuser and posted this:

Hello:
I am Mike Thurston with Enhance Technology.
We recomend the LSI-3801E for MacPro with open PCIE slots.
Use the O/S utility to create a RAID 5 and and use one the many 3GhZ CPU in your host to drive the scatter and gather functions. You will like the results.
Please call or email me with questions. miket@enhance-tech.com
562-777-3498
Thanks

Here you have it they are recommending the LSI over the ATTO. Even more they've stated in email to me that that ATTO R380 is NOT COMPATIBLE with the RS16 JS.

 

[Tim Jones]

Very curious, indeed.

Very curious, indeed.

They are making a recommendation, but he's also recommending the use of Apple's software RAID functionality (part of OS X). Go ahead, just give up one of your cores ...

I'd still like to hear more about WHY they are against the ATTO card and why they mentioned "Wide Port" support as a reason. As I mentioned, my ATTO connections that are in the know seem to think that any compatibility issues have been resolved.

Just for the sake of a chuckle, I wonder what they recommend for Mac Pro's WITHOUT open PCI-E slots ...

 

[Andrae Palmer]

They are making a recommendation, but he's also recommending the use of Apple's software RAID functionality (part of OS X). Go ahead, just give up one of your cores ...

I'd still like to hear more about WHY they are against the ATTO card and why they mentioned "Wide Port" support as a reason. As I mentioned, my ATTO connections that are in the know seem to think that any compatibility issues have been resolved.

Just for the sake of a chuckle, I wonder what they recommend for Mac Pro's WITHOUT open PCI-E slots ...

I was very curious about why they were recommending a non hardware RAID HBA myself. I went back and forth with Mike today and also with ATTO. Mike's logic is that with a computer like the 8 core 2.93GHz Mac Pro, the RAID functions will not use up much of the CPU... perhaps around 600MHz. Basically he believes that the computer (specifically 3GHz 8 core systems) has way more than enough CPU capacity to handle RAID functions and is even better at this function than HW RAIDs.

In his experience the LSI card is also considerable faster than the ATTO. He also confirmed with the engineers at Enhanced Technologies regarding the incompatibility of the ATTO. Even more he sent an email to ATTO stating that the R380 is not compatible. I would like to know more about what is causing the issues myself.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I can't comment about the Enhance Technologies unit, but I would be curious about the nature of the incompatibility because I've never had any compatibility issues with any JBOD or RAID connected via SAS to the ATTO cards. I have run across incompatibilities with various eSATA units, or more specifically different types of port multipliers that are sometimes used.

I have not used that particular LSI SAS controller either. However, I have used the LSISAS340x card. Single external SAS interface -- I was not happy with it and got rid of it earlier this year. But looking at the specs on paper, the 3801 doesn't look too appealing. It's true that a 3GHz CPU is plenty powerful for running RAID functions, they don't take much overhead. However, I wouldn't want to sacrifice CPU cycles for RAID functions if I don't have to. Not when I'm constantly maxing out most of my CPU cores for rendering operations. I also don't care for running RAID-5 and more complex RAID configurations via software and OSX doesn't offer RAID-5 via software anyway, not without third-party RAID utilities.

 

[Rainer Fritz]

I'm running here the ATTO R380 with a Fibrenetix Pixi Extreme RAID and a HP1840 SAS LTO-4 drive both on the same controller and it runs really nice connected to the 2008 MacPro. The Pixi RAID brings nearly 600MB/s sustained data rate as RAID6 and the nice thing is, you can connect the LTO-4 also over the two expansion slots of the RAID. So enough backup if one of the interfaces will fail for some reason.... I'm very happy with this config..... Using at the moment retrospect for backup which is not the best solution.... will wait till the money for a better backup software is there...

with the rocket in and an esata card, an additional PCIe slot would be really nice...... to put a Kona in or something else....

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I can't comment about the Enhance Technologies unit, but I would be curious about the nature of the incompatibility because I've never had any compatibility issues with any JBOD or RAID connected via SAS to the ATTO cards. I have run across incompatibilities with various eSATA units, or more specifically different types of port multipliers that are sometimes used.

Talked to ATTO today and they stated that the H380 is the card without Wide Port... NOT the R380. They also stated they have heard of issues with the UltraStor RS16 JS and wouldn't recommend it. Still don't know exactly what the issue is especially since the R380 does support Wide Port. So Enhance Technologies won't recommend the ATTO and and ATTO won't recommend the UltraStor RS16 JS.

I'm running here the ATTO R380 with a Fibrenetix Pixi Extreme RAID and a HP1840 SAS LTO-4 drive both on the same controller and it runs really nice connected to the 2008 MacPro.

That's nice to hear that the RAID 6 performance is so high with the ATTO & the Pixi. How much does the Fibrenetix Pixi Extreme cost?

 

[Rainer Fritz]

The Pixi costs here about 9k EUR incl. Tax.

 

[Peter Franzen]

Tim,
I've really enjoyed reading your posts about tape units. I have learned a ton from you since I started researching this heavily.

I have a question though, for which I haven't really been able to find a conclusive answer. I am helping a friend start down the path of good data management for his fledgling video production company, and I want to ensure that I'm giving him the right advice.

He's currently running a brand new i7 iMac, and storing data on a handful of external firewire drives. I'm well on the way to designing him a solid external RAID setup, but I'm having some hangups when it comes to backups. I want to have a simple LTO-4 tape backup; not everything needs to be online and instantly accessible at this point, so I'm not looking at library units. Simple desktop units are perfectly adequate.

The problem though, is that there doesn't seem to be a way to connect one to an iMac. Essentially everything in the LTO world looks like it's done over SAS, which means that short of upgrading to a Mac Pro with a SAS card there is no way to set up a simple external tape drive for him.

I guess my question is: Why are there no eSATA or Firewire tape drives out there? Obviously, they'd be slower-- I understand that. What I don't understand though, is that given the importance of backing up data and the unbelievable rate at which we're accumulating the stuff these days, why are there no "prosumer" solutions to the problem? We're hoping to pick up a Mac Pro in 6-8 months, but for the time being it really does look like we're stuck.

Do you have any suggestions, or at least some insight in to how to proceed? Thanks so much.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Talked to ATTO today and they stated that the H380 is the card without Wide Port... NOT the R380. They also stated they have heard of issues with the UltraStor RS16 JS and wouldn't recommend it. Still don't know exactly what the issue is especially since the R380 does support Wide Port. So Enhance Technologies won't recommend the ATTO and and ATTO won't recommend the UltraStor RS16 JS.

In this situation, I would trust ATTO and skip the UltraStor. The ATTO cards are rock solid and their support is excellent.

 

[Tim Jones]

All-In-One, the Predicament

All-In-One, the Predicament

Tim,
I've really enjoyed reading your posts about tape units. I have learned a ton from you since I started researching this heavily.

I'm very pleased that the notes have been helpful.

I guess my question is: Why are there no eSATA or Firewire tape drives out there? Obviously, they'd be slower-- I understand that. What I don't understand though, is that given the importance of backing up data and the unbelievable rate at which we're accumulating the stuff these days, why are there no "prosumer" solutions to the problem? We're hoping to pick up a Mac Pro in 6-8 months, but for the time being it really does look like we're stuck.

Do you have any suggestions, or at least some insight in to how to proceed? Thanks so much.

And THAT is the $5.95 question. As a matter of fact, I've been speaking with a few of the interface technology manufacturers about a USB-2.0 to SAS adapter and we're trying to get the pot stirred. You are correct that there would be a speed hit, but most "ProSumer" users that I've spoken with would be quite happy to settle on 35 to 40MB/sec if it meant they got 800GB per tape and had an industry standard solution that they could grow with to boot.

If you search Ebay and Craig's List, you might find an AIT-2 Firewire or a VXA-2 Firewire drive, but be sure you get a return option as if you do find one, it's probably been "well used" and you'll be hard-put to get it repaired if it doesn't work properly.

Finally, if capacity is not a big (hehe) concern, you can get USB DAT mechanisms that will work with the iMac and the Mac Book / Mac Book Pro models. Currently, you're looking at 80GB per tape with the DAT160 units, but the DAT320 units have just started shipping and provide 160GB per tape and boost throughput to 10MB/sec (from 5MB/sec).

Sorry that I don't have an immediate answer other than to say - you're not alone and we're working on it.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

What cable is a good buy (quality) to connect a ATTO R380 to EH861A HP 1840 Ultrium SAS? Does the ATTO R380 come with a mini SAS to External SAS cable?

 

[Tim Jones]

Any SFF-8088 to SFF-8088 Cable can be used

Any SFF-8088 to SFF-8088 Cable can be used

Hi Andrae,

The ATTO Technology HBA doesn't include a cable. In our tests, we've not found a single cable that performs better than any other cable, regardless of price. Therefore, anything you find will work.

One tip - the 4 channels available on each of the R380's backplane ports are not made available by a normal cable, so if you plan on connecting other devices (which you absolutely can), you'll need a fan-out cable. Fan-out cables are available in 1 to 2 or a 1 to 4 connector models. While fan-out cables are more expensive than a single cable, they are the only way to actually use all of the channels available if you're not connecting to a SAS multiplexer or expander such as those found in SAS disk array boxes. Otherwise, you're leaving 3 of the 4 channels idle if you're only connecting to a single tape drive.

One good source for SAS cables is Rancho Technologies. You can also get cables from HP and there are many others. Do a search for SFF8088 to SFF8088 SAS cables and you should find a broad spectrum of suppliers.

Tim

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Tim,

Thanks for your informative response. I haven't been able to find a single SFF-8088 to four SFF-8088 cable. With what cable connectors is this usually done? My setup will consist of an ATTO R380 to a 16 bay JBOD and the other port being connected to the HP Ultrium 1840. Is your fan out cable stil a go for this setup? I've seen SFF-8088 to four SFF-8740 cables... but not a SFF-8088 to four SFF-8088 cables.

 

[Tim Jones]

Here are a few SAS Cables

Here are a few SAS Cables

Not to be sarcastic :emote_whack:, but here are a few that I just found with Google:

http://www.google.com/products/cata...log_result&ct=image&resnum=6&ved=0CCMQ8gIwBQ#

http://www.cablesondemand.com/produ...rs/Items/Library/InfoManage/CS-SAS2MUKBBC.htm

I don't know if you have a Fry's Electronics nearby, but they carry these (usually in the Hard drive aisle).

If all you're going to connect to the port with the tape drive is the tape drive, you only need a 1 to 1 cable. The fanout cables only come into play if you're connecting multiple tape drives or other SAS devices on that same port.

If you go to www.rancho.com, the 1 to 2 and 1 to 4 cables aren't listed, but are available. Their part numbers are:

RSI-8088/8088-21 - 1 8088 to 2 8088 Mini SAS Fanout
RSI-8088/8088-41 - 1 8088 to 4 8088 Mini SAS Fanout

They are more expensive ($300 to $400), but they are more difficult to make than a simple 1 to 1 cable.

Also be very careful as there are "Fan out" cables and "Break out" cables. Fan out cables are for external connections, while breakout cables are usually for internal or JBOD chassis requiring one connector for each disk drive.

Finally, the 8470 Infiniband connector type is NOT what you're looking for to use with the HP tape drive. But, check with your JBOD chassis vendor as to the connector type that their chassis requires..

As you can see from the pricing, it would not be cost effective for ATTO to include a cable. Additionally, which cable should they include? :wink:

HTH,
Tim

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Thanks Tim especially for the Rancho part numbers. The google search threw me off due to prices being very low and the pictures not showing fan out cables... I was under the impression that 4x is referring to 4 channels. Because it had 4x on both ends as in:

External Mini-SAS Cable - 4x Mini-SAS (SFF-8088) to 4x Mini-SAS (SFF-8088)

My google research hasn't returned even an image with a SFF-8088 to 4 SFF-8088 fan out cables.

As you can see from the pricing, it would not be cost effective for ATTO to include a cable. Additionally, which cable should they include? :wink:

A SFF-8088 to SFF-8088 would be a great start.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Tim,

Do you have any solution for using an LTO tape device via Express 34 slot adaptor or perhaps FW from a mac laptop.

thanks,

Dave

 

[Mathias Erichsen]

Hi
Have any of you used the HP StorageWorks DAT 160 USB External Tape Drive for storage? Is there any disadvantages if i don´t need more than 80GB pr project/day? Is the transfer super-slow or the media unstable/unreliable?

Mathias

 

[Tim Jones]

No luck for non-desktops...

No luck for non-desktops...

Tim,

Do you have any solution for using an LTO tape device via Express 34 slot adaptor or perhaps FW from a mac laptop.

thanks,

Dave

Hi Dave,

No luck. We had hoped to see an Express 34 SAS adapter, but it fell through because of the lack of a potential market (according to sources).

We're still pressing for a USB 2.0 to SAS adapter, but even that option is running into far too much opposition because the big deal with the LTO-4 and LTO-5 families of drives is the speed.

Currently, the only option for non-desktop systems are the USB DAT drives (DAT40, DAT72, DAT160 and the new DAT320).

I continue to lobby the LTO committee for at least an LTO-3 drive with a USB 2.0 interface, but I feel like I'm speaking into the wind until USB 3.0 is ratified and in production.

Tim