Is the 1D Mark IV better....

[Andrew Wilding]

yeah, but the focal length doesnt change - A 35mm always behaves as a 35mm - albeit with a smaller FOV on a smaller sensored camera.

 

[Tom Lowe]

yeah, but the focal length doesnt change - A 35mm always behaves as a 35mm - albeit with a smaller FOV on a smaller sensored camera.

We're chasing our tail in a circle here... Andrew and I are talking about losing FOV on the same L-series lenses when you place them on a crop-sensor body.

 

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

We're chasing our tail in a circle here... Andrew and I are talking about losing FOV on the same L-series lenses when you place them on a crop-sensor body.

Yes you are chasing your tail, and some of us have understood this basic physical lens:format fact for some time.
What the point of this thread is, still eludes me.
BTW I just invented an awesome new digital format that is 0,50mm x 0,25mm.
The 24mm will be the longest lens in my kit.
I am going to sleep now, wondering how wide my 24mm is going to be tomorrow.
Maybe if I put it next to a 28mm Im gonna end up with a whole bunch of little 52mm lenses?

 

[Cristina S]

Not nice.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Yea, eat some chocolate Jens. You are trying to make a good point but derailing the thread into the shadows.

As I understand it it is only depth compression or exaggeration and perspective that remain tied to the focal length, regardless of how much of the glass you use. While different sensors on the same lens will change FOV, which will change camera placement to achieve "the same shot" and give you different DoF from having to focus closer or further from minimum. Did I miss or confuse anything?

 

[M.Paul El-Darwish]

What the hell are you talking about.
For the last 20 years I have earned a living using 35 and S35mm motion, standard16, Super16, super8 and all the video formats including the recent 35mm converters. On the side there has allways been the 36x24mm stills format.
A 24mm lens is a 24mm lens. Period.
A lens covers a circular area(lets say a VERY large 70mm circle), but in 8mm you only use a small central part of that area, as opposed to a 70x60mm negative where you use allmost all of the usable area.
A 24mm lens is still a 24mm lens.
Sometimes it just feels like a 25,6mm lens, but its still a 24mm lens;-)

Jens
It's nice to see someone other than myself actually had instruction in technical photography. Amazes me how little people with tons of cash know about the technology that they are using- more power to us though :cheers2:

 

[M.Paul El-Darwish]

With all the mess that manufacturers have made with respect to image crop from the same focal length lenses via different sized sensors– maybe the key will be to develop a combined nomenclature that blends FOV (actually, Angle of View) with focal length as a single expression. Such as "24/90" . That expression abbreviates> 24mm(at) 90º. That would eliminate the sensor as a discussion variable when talking about lens FOV and we'd all be on the same page in communicating image crop with a given focal length optic.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

So you mean saying the focal length and the maximum angle of view based on the biggest (horizontal) sensor the image circle could cover? That sounds kinda cool.

Also, is perspective really a result of camera placement based on your sensor size and resolution (and what you chose to do with it) and not of focal length?

 

[Vince Doran]

I'm confused now...if a wide angle lens has a certain degree of angle of view on a FF sensor and less on a cropped sensor then moving the camera away from the subject to a determined distance will give you the same 'look"? I doubt it, surely the perspective will be different?

 

[Andrew Walker]

Yes you are chasing your tail, and some of us have understood this basic physical lens:format fact for some time.
What the point of this thread is, still eludes me.
BTW I just invented an awesome new digital format that is 0,50mm x 0,25mm.
The 24mm will be the longest lens in my kit.
I am going to sleep now, wondering how wide my 24mm is going to be tomorrow.
Maybe if I put it next to a 28mm Im gonna end up with a whole bunch of little 52mm lenses?

Both you and M.Paul sound a little snobish to me.

When I see a 24mm lens I think FOV, which is what is important. Because if you put a 24mm still lens on the RED One you are really getting around a 38mm FOV. So you can say that a 24mm acts like a 24mm but are you going to put on a 24mm and not move the camera back some. It just seems really stupid to say that the lens is always a 24mm when I think the majority of people think FOV. Since I have the day off tomorrow I'm going to shoot some stills with my RED and my 5D2 just to show you what I mean because I don't think its getting through.

Jens
It's nice to see someone other than myself actually had instruction in technical photography. Amazes me how little people with tons of cash know about the technology that they are using- more power to us though :cheers2:

Believe it or not, not all of us have tons of cash. The RED camera was an investment for me and as I'm sure it was for most of the people on here. Also, I would rather be technically retarded and have photographic creativity any day. But as you'll find on here most of the people know the RED camera forwards and backwards. Plus a good portion of them are DPs or directors.

So again for people that didn't hear me the first time. A FF35 5D2 is much better than the 1.3 cropped sensor of the 1D4 in my eyes because the 24mm has the FOV that a 24mm should have. Its important to me because I need the 24mm to capture 24mm FOV.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Are some of us have to go back in the school again or...???!

35mm film marked with digital camera sensor sizes. (Green: Canon 1.3x, Red: Nikon DX, Blue: Canon 1.6x. Nikon FX and Canon full-frame are the same size as the image in the film.)

Ken Rockwell>>Crop factor>>>

The image circle created by a 35mm format lens is shown.
The blue rectangle shows what a 35mm film, or a full-frame digital SLR will record.
The inner red frame shows what a digital SLR with a 1.6X magnification factor will record.

Luminous Landscape>>Understanding the DSLR Magnification Factor>>


The full frame camera has more DOF. In fact, it has 1.6x more DOF, since it needs to be enlarged that much less to get the same print size.

The Mathematics of Depth of Field / Part Two: Crop Factor, Magnification and the 1/3 Myth>>

Field of View

"The field of view (FOV) of a lens is the angular cone extending from the focal plane of the camera into space.
The FOV depends on two things, the diagonal of the sensor (D) and the focal length (f) of the lens.
The formula below shows how to compute the diagonal FOV in radians and degrees.

FOV (radians) = 2 x atan (D / 2 / f)
FOV (degrees) = 2 x atan (D / 2 / f) x 57.3
(D = diagonal of the sensor, f = focal length of the lens)

The table below show the results of computing the diagonal FOV for two different lenses on two different sensors.
The first lens is a 135 mm lens used with 35 mm film (i.e. a crop factor of 1.0x),
and the second lens is a 28 mm lens used on a camera with a 1/1.8" type CCD sensor (i.e. a crop factor of 4.8x).

Sensor Crop f. D (mm) f (mm) FOV (rad.) FOV (deg.)
FX/135-format 1.0x 43.3 135 0.318 18.2
DX-format 1.5x 28.4 90 0.313 17.9
1/1.8" type CCD 4.8x 8.9 28 0.316 18.1

The table shows that all three lenses in this case will produce about the same field of view: 18 degrees.
Lenses with a more narrow FOV of view than 45 degrees is generally
regarded as telephoto lenses. I.e.:given a small enough sensor, a 28 mm lens is a telephoto lens.

Most photographers, however, are used to thinking about FOV in terms of focal lengths of lenses attached
to 35 mm film cameras instead of degrees. For them, the crop factor is a convenient way of computing
the 35 mm film “equivalent” focal length from the real focal length: Just multiply the real focal length
with the crop factor to get the 35 mm film “equivalent” focal length.

Example: Given the 1/1.8" type CCD sensor discussed above and a 28 mm lens,
the 35 mm film “equivalent” focal length of this combination is:

28 mm x 4.8 = 134 mm.

Note, however, that the real focal length of the lens does not change.

The crop factor multiplicator is just a convenient device

to help the photographer visualize the FOV when using

a certain lens on a digital camera with an unfamiliar sensor size.

Other characteristics of focal length, such as depth of field,

remains tied to real focal length."

LINK>>>

 

[James T Mather]

Wow - what a nit-picking thread of the "you-can't-hear-explosions-in-space" variety.

Surely everyone understood what was meant by the 25 becoming a 31 as opposed to trying to "school" people in the correct nomenclature, surely we are beyond this childishness.

Just trivial day-one-in-photo-class geek peacocking which derails the discussion.

 

[Vince Doran]

Wow - what a nit-picking thread of the "you-can't-hear-explosions-in-space" variety.

Surely everyone understood what was meant by the 25 becoming a 31 as opposed to trying to "school" people in the correct nomenclature, surely we are beyond this childishness.

Just trivial day-one-in-photo-class geek peacocking which derails the discussion.

Have to agree, why not stick a suitable lens on your camera and get out there frame it right and shoot some shit, all this mathematical crap is a bit of a joke iIMO

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Wow - what a nit-picking thread of the "you-can't-hear-explosions-in-space" variety.

Surely everyone understood what was meant by the 25 becoming a 31 as opposed to trying to "school" people in the correct nomenclature, surely we are beyond this childishness.

Just trivial day-one-in-photo-class geek peacocking which derails the discussion.

I think that some people really didn't understand- and some readers still don't.

I do think the field could use some standardized way of describing a lens and sensor so that given only that description a person can predict with some accuracy the results of any practical combination of lens & sensor.

That is not my main point, and is probably a whole topic to itself. I didn't expect the matter to consume so much attention.

The original question was which is the better camera the 5Dmk2 or the 1Dmk4?

My response is that the 1Dmk4 is a better camera than the 5Dmk2 in most regards. That doesn't make the 5Dmk2 a bad camera, its a very good camera. (So is the 7D for that matter- which is why I own a 7D.)

The exception is applications where obtaining the widest FOV on a particular lens is important. The 5Dmk2 has a larger sensor. Its other "failings" when compared to the 1Dmk4 are negligible in this circumstance. So, for this sort of application the 5Dmk2 wins.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Excepting operation controls, If I'm reading this correctly there seem to be four main areas that could be of concern that users have raised about image quality, Im sure theres more.

Field of view
Noise
Aliasing
Rolling Shutter

With a suitable lens the angle of view issues can be fixed as this affects the wide end for practical purposes. If theres enough light and noise is reduced. Am I right in saying that Aliasing and Rolling shutter are the two main issues between the 3 cameras ?

 

[James T Mather]

yes.

1d apparently has less skew than 5d
aliasing apparently about the same
getting wider "fast" lenses for 1d is tricky as nothing is currently available faster than 2.8
- this might be cured by the increase in usable ISO but test before you buy.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Wow - what a nit-picking thread of the "you-can't-hear-explosions-in-space" variety.

Surely everyone understood what was meant by the 25 becoming a 31 as opposed to trying to "school" people in the correct nomenclature, surely we are beyond this childishness.

"childishness" :violin: :biggrin: :mad2: :iamwithstupid:>>>I wouldn't say like that...

yes.


getting wider "fast" lenses for 1d is tricky as nothing is currently available faster than 2.8

Wow, good morning Mr. 5DMK2 :dita:

it looks that you still need to respect some of core facts before you start to make any sort of conclusion.

My recommendation is to get yourself a basic course in logic thinking and making analysis:

Maybe this could help and it's a good read is to start with

Ludwig Wittgenstein>>>

 

[James T Mather]

Sanjin as usual you make a post which shows your bias and rudeness.

it looks that you still need to respect some of core facts before you start to make any sort of conclusion.

can you name me any wider lenses for the 1d which are faster than 2.8?

Despite my question to point out the foolishness of your post, I have no wish to talk or engage with you. Thank you. /Ignore

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin as usual you make a post which shows your bias and rudeness.


can you name me any wider lenses for the 1d which are faster than 2.8?

"Fully compatible with over 50 EF lenses and a wide range of EOS System accessories.

EF Lenses
The EOS-1D Mark IV is compatible with all Canon lenses in the EF lineup (excluding EF-S lenses),
ranging from ultra-wide angle to super telephoto lenses. Canon lenses employ advanced optical expertise
and micron-precision engineering to deliver outstanding performance in nearly all facets of the photographic process.
Special optical technologies, such as aspherical optics and fluorite elements, are featured in the widely acclaimed L-Series lenses,
and Canon Image Stabilizer technology in select lenses helps to minimize the effect of camera shake.
Through Canon lenses, photographers can truly maximize the quality and liberating performance of the 1D Mark IV."


LINK>>>


Canon EF lenses>>Wide-Angle

Canon EF 24mm f/1.4L II USM

Canon's newest fixed length L-series lens, the EF 24mm f/1.4L II USM,
incorporates the newest in Canon lens technology for spectacular sharpness and impressive performance at all settings.
It features two high-precision, large-diameter aspherical lenses for sharpness across the sensor, even in peripheral areas
of full-frame sensors. Lens elements have a newly-designed anti-reflective SWC (Sub Wavelength Coating) that departs
from conventional coatings by using an extremely fine structure that minimizes ghosting and flaring across the lens surface,
regardless of the angle with which light enters or exits. It also features two UD lens elements to minimize chromatic aberrations,
incorporates rear-focusing, ultrasonic, quiet and high-speed AF with full-time manual override.
A circular aperture provides beautiful out-of-focus detail and offers legendary dust- and water-resistant L-series construction using only lead-free glass.

Shot with Canon EF 24mm f/1.4L II USM

LINK>>>

 

[James T Mather]

As I said in my post Sanjin, I meant a wide lens like a 16mm.

Beyond this, I don't wish to talk to you again.

Please feel free to not answer my posts or converse with me. Ever again.