RED Scarlet and Epic, the new film school standard

[Zakaree Sandberg]

well.. its just personal opinion and from what I have personally seen a billion times..

Glossy films (as glossy as students can make)
but nothing complements the story (if there is a story)

so hell ya cripple the students. you need to start somewhere.. and starting from the top has never been a good thing for development

 

[Jamie Havill]

Fair play dude.

From what I've seen (I've seen so many film school films and been to so many student festivals I've lost count), you give new filmmakers nothing to work with, and they produce nothing. You give them something, and they produce something.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

It would have been at my old film school...

I don't know what film schools are like over in America, or other parts of the world, but over in England $5,000 solely to make the footage captured by their camera/cameras workable in their current workflow is an EXTREMELY big deal.

I wasn't aware of that situation...

Even if we disregard Adobe news and the fact that this issue will be solved in near future by all platform makers, it could still be seen from two other perspectives:

a) Seeing RED LE investment as a whole workable package, which would consist of mandatory acceleration card.

b) If school budget was sucked dry students could always organize themselves and all chip in: $4750 divided by 4 years and let's say 10 students per card = $118.75 per year.

you give new filmmakers nothing to work with, and they produce nothing. You give them something, and they produce something.

Makes sense, but it doesn't have to be black or white situation, IMO. If all is served on a platter there is no need for developing creative abilities and no equivalent need for growth, plus perceiving value of every level reached, which is extremely important in educational process. It's debatable how having great tools at the start of learning phase affects the learning curve.

Challenge is good. Serves as a filter.

 

[Jamie Havill]

I wasn't aware of that situation...

Even if we disregard Adobe news and the fact that this issue will be solved in near future by all platform makers, it could still be seen from two other perspectives:

a) Seeing RED LE investment as a whole workable package, which would consist of mandatory acceleration card.

b) If school budget was sucked dry students could always organize themselves and all chip in: $4750 divided by 4 years and let's say 10 students per card = $118.75 per year.

Makes sense, but it doesn't have to be black or white situation, IMO. If all is served on a tray there is no need for developing creative abilities and the need for growth. Challenge is good. Serves as a filter.

I agree with everything you just said Hrvoje. I think that would definitely work for film schools where students really, really care about what they are doing. In mine, I'd be able to find three other people as interested and keen to do something like that as me, as for the rest of them... :lipsrsealed:

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I'd be able to find three other people as interested and keen to do something like that as me, as for the rest of them... :lipsrsealed:

There's your filter, Jamie. Stick with those three.

 

[Jamie Havill]

There's your filter, Jamie. Stick with those three.

I am, we stick together like we're made out of glue! We've made our own little production company and are shooting our next project on Red (we all worked through summer and saved!).

I definitely think at more dedicated and wealthy film schools Red would be a viable option, just not at any I've ever seen over here at least!

 

[Nesdon Booth]

I teach at a film school where we have a lot of very advanced equipment like a brand new Avid Nitris lab, a 4K projector in our THX theater, and a new Digidesign Icon board in our Dub stage. But our main starting cameras are still XL2's, and even the 6 F900's we have are feeling very antiquated these days.

Everyone on the faculty wants to see a complete upgrade, but this sector is changing so fast, the administration wants to wait to see what shakes out before they make a major investment. We wonder if the Scarlet might be the one, but can't imagine them acting until is has been in the field for a few months.

They started to upgrade a couple of years ago by bringing in some XDcams, and then got a Panasonic HPX2000, but I think they feel they made a mistake, even tho those are popular cameras among our students. Some have been pitching Canon 7D's as a stop gap, others Red Ones. But the post guys are still concerned about workflow, and despite the cine faculty's near unaniminity on wanting some Reds, admin still seem unconvinced that Red has settled in as a new standard, even tho' 1/4 of our final projects seem to be hiring outside Reds.

We have 50 XL2s, and about 20 of assorted high end cameras, so anyway you look at it, it would be a substantial sum to do an upgrade. I like the idea of mixing it up, and having many different cameras.

We do have a number of sets of PL mount Zeiss primes for our BL's and because our stage exercise classes shoot on XL2's with P+S Technic Mini35 adaptors, which actually provide a very good learning experience. But the students balk, as well they might, at the low quality of their finished exercises. Altho' as someone who came from the art dept, I love the way they hide all the rough edges.

We heard Red was re-thinking the Scarlet design to address the competition from cameras like the 7D. Is this true and if so, what have they done to address that?

 

[paulherrin]

what do you mean, the form factor or the camera specs?

by the way, before one of the moderators has to get onto you, this is a real name forum meaning you either need to communicate under your full name or at least some kind of initial added.

post your name here... http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32432
to sort it out.

and by the way, i don't say that to be bossy or anything or act like i have anything to do with it... just trying to be helpful.

 

[Nesdon Booth]

I assume you mean regarding the rumor about the Scarlet design, and if so, I have no idea what Red may have been thinking if they were actually rethinking the release.

I will say from what I have seen so far the 7D has spectacular low light performance, and as we configured it has been working pretty well for our purposes of training camera protocols. We will do our tape log and capture lesson on other material, but tape is sort of dying anyway as a capture medium.

 

[paulherrin]

The revamp of the Scarlets & Epics had a lot less to do with cameras like the 7D and a lot more to do with RED wanting to do as much as they can, and fill the needs of those who will be using the cameras.

The 7D and such VDSLR's are good for some things, like extremely low light. But there are limitations at this point... shortcuts and compromises the manufacturers were forced to take in order to make it work. compressed, line-skipped, 1080 video is not the same as REDs.

Does it work very well for some things, yes. The point is, many of the students could probably afford a VDSLR for themselves, or at least borrow one from someone else who can get one. As a school, you should try to offer them something they can't acquire on their own. I think it would benefit the students to at least get them working on a litte higher level, and learning hands on the process they might face when they get out there.

When you're on set with a RED, saying "I know how to get the best image out of a VDSLR" really doesn't help much.

I'm not saying don't get any of the canon's - they are definitely great stills cameras, and they can shoot some decent video for some uses - probably great for basic training, as you suggested you have been using them for. Personally, I'd wait for the next line to come out before making any more kind of investment in them. I've been needing a new stills camera, and was very tempted to jump on them, but I think it's wise to hold off for the next round - hopefully there will be some serious improvements.

But it will seriously benefit your students to get a taste of what's more, and the process surrounding this new camera system.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

For film schools, i thank cams like the 7d would be great for quick shorts or guerilla style projects but I doubt that students would want to film a thesis project on them, not when their peers are using 16mm, 35mm and F23-35 style cams.

 

[Nesdon Booth]

I'm pretty well against the 7D's, no way these will ever be a professional video format, Despite the students desire for more res, I'd sooner keep on with P+S Technic until the next wave hits.

I'm curious what folks think about going to Scarlets, of course with them still as vapor, that can only be speculation. On the other hand, I was pretty sure the Red One was total vaporware when it was just a rumor. So many companies spew BS in an effort to raise money, and then the price point and specs are miles away. I was stunned when Red delivered.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

Plenty of people are doing professional stuff with the Canon's, there are of curse limitations but creativity makes up for it.

 

[Nesdon Booth]

Gosh yes, professional has so much broader meaning these days. As a 60 year old fart with 30 years in the industry, I remember decades when pro meant Arri, Panavision period.

 

[Tim Hole]

I think Jamie has put a good point across there. In my film school the first year had 120 students, second year maybe 100, third year maybe 90. You had to work in groups (usually around five in a group) that is 18 groups. Each year we made four fives at 10 min maximum each. At any one time you would be prospectively looking at 62 films being made four or five times a year. Unless each group had their own RAID drives allocated to them each year thats a lot of space. 620 mins of final film cut. 3100 mins at 5:1 ratio.

Thats obviously shooting RED for everything which is probably not necessary. If film schools are anything like mine was then, the only people that were allowed to use the top notch kit was the Master Degree students. We got trained and had workshops in the higher end stuff but we only got to use PD-150s and Bolex's

I borrowed my kit for my final year film and shot on a s16mm it was fantastic...scary as hell. I felt every click as a pound coin being dropped into the Well of Oblivion when the camera was rolling. ---Funnily enough i still feel that way whenever I shoot film

That feeling doesn't exist with Digital...i'm so much happier and calmer for it.

 

[Nesdon Booth]

At my school, if you're checked out on the Panavision , you can check it out. Tho' the final project students have first dibs.

I don't think storage is the issue for us. We have lots of HDCam and XDCam projects in the pipeline all the time, and drive space is really cheap these days (2TB 7200 rpm drive at frys for $150!?). All our editing bays have BluRay burners and big raid drives, and I think there is some big ol' server that facilitates moving files to the dub stage and projector, but that's not my purview, so I'm not sure.

I think the workflow issues have more to do the with transcoding and faculty expertise. I imagine that everyone is hustling to compete in this market, and that within a couple of years we will see all sorts of "inexpensive" 4K and higher cameras.

I am partuculary fond of Reds modular interchanable philosophy, which I think makes especially good sense in a film school enviornment

 

[paulherrin]

I'm a student myself actually, and would be SO pleased if our school invested in Scarlets. I'm still working on that. I'm not sure that you'll be seeing much going on in a reasonable price range as you think. While there are some other cameras, they are very high end coming from Arri and Pana. Not cheap stuff at all. I think we will see some improvements in the VDSLR range, but I wouldn't worry too much about anything from RED being obsoleted. I mean, just think about what you're getting for the price... even if ten years from now a "better" option comes along - how much better is it going to be that the RED just isn't good anymore? I mean if it's good... it's good, right? Not to mention the modularity and upgrade options in the future. I'd say it makes a lot of sense from an investment standpoint.

 

[Mike Mazzotta]

I'd be very suprised if they had more than one/two RED cameras.

Actually, we have 5 full packages for use with our 2nd year students. . .

As for our Full-Time Post-Production Department, I just got back from REDucation yesterday. We'll be upgrading the rest of our lab, and bringing the rest of the staff up to speed. . . but we've been staying on top of the RED thing since the school got it's first package last year. . .

The RED is a perfect camera for Film Students, because it can be as simple of as complex as you want, and once you graduate, you'll have experience on INDUSTRY STANDARD gear. And you really can't beat that.

 

[Nesdon Booth]

Can you call my CEO? We are private for profit school who sell hard on technology. Your posts make me realize that the market has stabilized in with RED, or RED compatible gear.

The dominance of Arri and Pana despite Moviecam, Aaton and others shows that Hollywood closes ranks around small sets of proven solutions.The tiniest failures cascade to cost thousands and thousands on any show, so we are like hosptials and space flight demanding 100% performance. But the RED has been anointed, isn't going anywhere, and is GOOD, so what are we waiting for?

 

[Jamie Havill]

Actually, we have 5 full packages for use with our 2nd year students. . .

As for our Full-Time Post-Production Department, I just got back from REDucation yesterday. We'll be upgrading the rest of our lab, and bringing the rest of the staff up to speed. . . but we've been staying on top of the RED thing since the school got it's first package last year. . .

The RED is a perfect camera for Film Students, because it can be as simple of as complex as you want, and once you graduate, you'll have experience on INDUSTRY STANDARD gear. And you really can't beat that.

You officially run the richest film school I've ever heard of, ever. Maybe things are different in the UK!

Edit: In fact, this has made me realise something as well.

We need to distinguish exactly what kind of 'schools' we're talking about here. Because it seems that there are now effectively businesses, that are educating people in film (and thus being granted the freedom to be called a school) that have bigger budgets than most (that I have come into contact with in the UK) film schools could dream of.

When I say film school, I'm talking established, government subsidised educational institutions - primarily universities/colleges and old red brick film schools. The places (where a hell of a lot of people learn their trade) don't have this kind of money. It's great that you do Mike, and I'm completely all for it. But I think it's important to realise the vast differences in economical weight, that could, and indeed do, exist between two different businesses/institutions that both have the right to be called a film school.