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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Scarlet and Epic, the new film school standard

I think the new cameras would be a perfect system for film schools. Theyre (relatively) cheap, and the quality is great, and a lot of the shooting discipline is transferrable to film jobs.

They dont need to be for everyone. When I was at Uni we had to make to with PD150s and an Xl1 in the first year, then as the course progressed we got access to more equipment. I thought it worked. Forced us to be creative with the gear we had, and gave us more of a learning curve to cover the basics before getting into the more complex stuff and thinking we were spielberg.

Having said that, I think I can safely say you learn a million times more when you start working than you ever do at Uni, so maybe the gear you have is irrelevant?

There is a lot of money in the unis in this region, and Ive met 1st year film students running around with REDs, Master Primes and assistants. Cant help but think thats a bit of overkill.

Dont mean to sound arrogant, just my thoughts.
 
I don't think there is an ultimate solution to this question. It varies between each person, and their ability as creatives and filmmakers. Also their drive as individuals, and a willingness to push themselves to the absolute limit when making or being involved in a project.

A lot of the people I know at film school simply don't have the drive or raw thirst to be in the position that they are. I don't think the equipment makes a shred of difference, it just enables you to have a clearer, more beautiful looking/sounding film once your in post.

I've been making films for just over a year. Probably about 13 months now. I've had two films screened at over 20 festivals in the UK and abroad, I'm very competent in every aspect of the pre-production, production and post production stage. That's because I push myself till I can no longer even stand every single day. I used a 35mm film camera for my first project, then used a HDV camera for my second, and then a HDV camera with a DOF adapter for my third serious project. It doesn't make a shred of difference and people hold way too much weight on the 'push yourself with limited equipment, great way to learn'. The best way to learn is to actually get up off your arse and live and breath nothing else. If you really, truly want it, then it is yours for the taking. The last year of my life has been spent doing nothing but reading, studying and being involved with filmmaking. And before anyone thinks I come from a privlidged background you are completely mistaken. I live alone, with my mother, she earns less than the budget for my next film in a whole year, and I'm a full time university student with two part times jobs.

Whilst the rest of my course have now decided to pick a written dissertation over a 15 minute short film (because I've been told by my tutor, me and my partner 'intimidate' them with our quality and drive), I've gathered a $20,000 budget, and I'm involved in making the most ambitious short I have to date.

If I can do it, anybody can. It's irrelevent about whether the film school or university has the latest and greatest, it's how you approach it. Use 35mm, use Red, use HDV, use DV: it doesn't matter.

If you're a true filmmaker, with absolute passion and a sprinkle of talent, then it will happen. If you're not, move on and do something else in the process. Specialise in something. Surely then it makes sense to be using the latest and greatest that hopefully once you graduate you will go on to be working with?

Just my two cents, apply salt etc.
 
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As a recent NYU film school graduate, I can say that yes, RED is getting greater and greater use in film school. However, just as in the industry, there are those that embrace the RED for it's advantages, but those that stick with film because of "that look" that they want to get.

And, due to the infinite amount of add ons, configurations, there will be the "film school" rig, and then there will be the "pro rig" that will be impossible for any school or student to rent. Although there is a big gear-head factor in film school of wanting the best and brightest equipment for your thesis, I think that if a camera is quality is affordable enough for student films, but the best option out of college, then students will use it, they'll just start fulfilling their equipment-lust through other pieces like lenses, lights, etc.

On a side note, one thing that I've seen back up my film school is the post workflow. They are very up-to-date on technology, however it's hard for techs to learn and support something across platforms over 200+ systems that changes every few weeks, as RED technology does. It's a wild world out here, and not only is the workflow confusing (which can be mastered) but it's constantly changing, which is hard. I would say that this has been the biggest factor for my alma matter not throwing their full weight behind the RED.
 
RED and Scarlet would be great for film schools -- the main obstacle (besides 35mm cine lenses for the RED) is the processing of R3D files.

Film schools generally don't have full-time post-production departments in the traditional sense (they mostly just do minor stuff for the students) so students in many schools would be left with the task of getting the R3D files converted themselves.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Film schools generally don't have full-time post-production departments in the traditional sense (they mostly just do minor stuff for the students) so students in many schools would be left with the task of getting the R3D files converted themselves.
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Which would be a good thing, right?

Definitely a way to understand the ways of the RED.

And with Scarlet (since Epic would be a bit harder for them to have) they'll be able to shoot RGB with a preset LUT and bypass lots of this process. Not sure if it's wanted and how common this will become.
 
Pietro Impagliazzo said:
Which would be a good thing, right?

Definitely a way to understand the ways of the RED.

And with Scarlet (since Epic would be a bit harder for them to have) they'll be able to shoot RGB with a preset LUT and bypass lots of this process. Not sure if it's wanted and how common this will become.
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That's a double edged sword though. Film schools generally needs lots of machines, and they wouldn't likely be powerful enough to make transcoding of R3D's a reasonable thing to do. I'm all for film schools using the latest and greatest, but the storage, computational and knowledge requirements to work with R3D in post make it quite unfeasible for the moment.

The amount of problems that would get thrown up would be difficult to manage too. Film schools need proven and relaible work flows, or else there just shooting themselves in the foot.
 
I think Red and Scarlet would be perfect for film schools. Epic is an overkill, IMO and if there was a larger budget it would be better to acquire more Scarlets. Also 2/3" Scarlet shouldn't be disregarded.

I don't think transcoding speed is an issue because additional $4,750 for RedRocket shouldn't be a big deal, plus scaled RGB 1080p should allow faster workflow for the types of classes which don't involve post.
 
Well... I guess even being RGB there would still be a great room for post.

People color correct H264 from vDSLRs... Why would a RGB image originated from a RED camera be any less capable?
 
Pietro Impagliazzo said:
People color correct H264 from vDSLRs... Why would a RGB image originated from a RED camera be any less capable?
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Yeah, you *can* color correct it, but if the color is too far warm and you want to bring it back to neutral, well, good luck. It can be quite nasty.

RGB from a Scarlet will be much, much easier to rescue or do radical things to.
 
I don't know what film schools are like over in America, or other parts of the world, but over in England $5,000 solely to make the footage captured by their camera/cameras workable in their current workflow is an EXTREMELY big deal.

On top of that the storage requirements for say, 15/20 different film groups at any one time offloading footage, plus the cost of Red's CF/HD/RAM/solid state media are huge hurdles that would need to be addressed. I re-iterate the staff requirements that would be neccesary as well to support students through the Red workflow (our department doesn't use Mac's either making things even more difficult) and helping them have a decent quality end product. We currently all use HDV (I'm renting a RED One outside of university for my final project), and that as is pushes storage, staff, and availible computational resources to their limits.

I go to a very respected University, and their entire budget last year wouldn't cover the cost of implementing this and paying for just one fixed lens scarlet.

Edit: Hell they've only just officially decided to support 1080i capture, and don't currently officially even support progressive capture. I've never been able to edit at University because they simply wouldn't of helped me when I had issues with my progressive footage. On top of that my home setup is much better than what is provided.

I just think it boils down to what kind of film schools we're talking about here. Sure there will always be high end schools, that have fantastic budgets for the latest equipment, but the large majority of school's have to make the best of a small budget that makes things work for everybody. On top of that governments over here are slashing university funding. My University alone is losing £35million (about $65million) of funding this year.
 
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I come from the school of thought that it isnt the gear.. its the story..

so I disagree.. You give students incredible gear, and they will just churn out shitty films..

The idea of being a student is to be inventive.. If you have a Camera thats "doing it for you" then how is that learning new things?
relying on gear will hurt the creativity!!!

Im not saying film schools arent going to get scarlets and epics to draw students.. cause they will. I just feel bad for the students in the long run
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
I come from the school of thought that it isnt the gear.. its the story..

so I disagree.. You give students incredible gear, and they will just churn out shitty films..

The idea of being a student is to be inventive.. If you have a Camera thats "doing it for you" then how is that learning new things?
relying on gear will hurt the creativity!!!

Im not saying film schools arent going to get scarlets and epics to draw students.. cause they will. I just feel bad for the students in the long run
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I completely and utterly disagree with you here.

I come from a school of thought that a story is a story, great or terrible, and absolutely nothing will change that. If a filmmaker writes terrible storys, how on EARTH is having a Red One going to change that? If he starts with a great story, how is having good equipment going to be detrimental to that?

I didn't realise people hired top end equipment to write their films for them.

Bad filmmakers make bad films no matter what you give them. Good filmmakers make good films, no matter what you give them. Great equipment simply gives the filmmaker better tools to create better looking/sounding films. I'm sorry but a camera doesn't 'do it for you'. I'm really sick of hearning this same old churned out 'story, story, story'.

Students arn't retards. They realise this. They're just the same as any other independent filmmaker. Just usually younger, and more willing to accept they have things to learn. Let me tell you from being a student I approach a film absolutely no differently whether I shoot on HDV, P2 or RED. It is just nice to work with equipment that will let you have great images, and let you tell your story more effectively.

How many films have you been to see recently that were shot on a camera phone with no gripping/lighting or talent behind the camera?
 
Jamie,
You dont get it. I didnt say the camera writes the story.

I said Students shouldnt be handed top of the line gear and sent on there merry way.
maybe in their grad year.. but they should still start from the start. learn how to light with available lighting, learn how to light with what they can find at ace hardware, learn how to create an in camera effect without pushing a button..learn how to make something look a certain way without relying on the colorist.

you strap on a RED and say "oh well its raw.. fix it in post" you just sucked out 90% of the creativity.
Students need to discover things on their own.. "oh we dont have a 4k HMI, ... lets just throw this mirror up, lean it on this wall.. a throw a silk in front of it"

that sort of thing.
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
Jamie,
You dont get it. I didnt say the camera writes the story.

I said Students shouldnt be handed top of the line gear and sent on there merry way.
maybe in their grad year.. but they should still start from the start. learn how to light with available lighting, learn how to light with what they can find at ace hardware, learn how to create an in camera effect without pushing a button..learn how to make something look a certain way without relying on the colorist.

you strap on a RED and say "oh well its raw.. fix it in post" you just sucked out 90% of the creativity.
Students need to discover things on their own.. "oh we dont have a 4k HMI, ... lets just throw this mirror up, lean it on this wall.. a throw a silk in front of it"

that sort of thing.
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Well this is a completely different thing altogether then.

Story relates to the screenplay, narrative and direction of a film. What your saying is that the technical departments should be purposely crippled to force them to utilise lesser technology in order to aid the storytellers vision . I kind of agree, in a way, but somehow cannot feel this kind of attitude is why film schools are in such a mess (in the UK). There needs to be a happy medium. Not supplying lighting is rediculous, just as is not supplying a decent camera to work with. Even the noobiest of students want something they can be proud of, something that will show them what they are doing is worth persuing, and encouraging them to keep working.

I disagree that giving students access to good equipment will mean they will churn out poor quality films though.
 
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