Black Sun Not Yet Solved In B16 !!

[Robert Berger]

Still a black sun in build 16 by High reflections in car windows give a magenta darker spot in the highlight from the sun. Will this be fixed ??

With regards Robert

 

[Stuart English]

Black Sun / Pink Sun

Black Sun / Pink Sun

The original black sun issue was addressed back in Build 13 I think, there is no change in Build 16 in this regard.

Post production work techniques to mitigate any remaining magenta cast have been discussed several time on this board

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I cried about this back when Builds 12 & 13 were released. But since getting my camera and learning a lot more about how to properly expose and grade footage, the "black sun" is essentially a non-issue. On the rare occasion that it does become an issue, a simple mask in post, even with a point track solves it. But I can 99% of the time make the spot go away just in grading, if I actually exposed the image properly, within sensible limits.

 

[Joe Vinson]

So, just to clarify, does that mean the Red team considers this issue already "resolved," and we should not expect any future development to fix the magenta cast?

 

[Robert Berger]

I cried about this back when Builds 12 & 13 were released. But since getting my camera and learning a lot more about how to properly expose and grade footage, the "black sun" is essentially a non-issue. On the rare occasion that it does become an issue, a simple mask in post, even with a point track solves it. But I can 99% of the time make the spot go away just in grading, if I actually exposed the image properly, within sensible limits.

Sun reflections or direct shooting the sun in your frame is a problem still and issue, because it should not be there and my clients have a problem with that. You can't always solve it with exposer. It should be fixed, and it wil make me and a lot of other cameraman happy!

 

[Uli Plank]

If it's magenta, you have an IR problem. Get a hot mirror filter.

You can only raise the internal IR filter to a certain strenght without sacrificing quality. Ordinary ND filters let most of the IR pass, but – other than film – electronic sensors are very sensitive to IR. This has been discussed at length here at reduser.

With proper filtering I never had any 'black sun' issue even when filming straight into a low sun on my Red (starting at fimware 15).

Regards,

Uli

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

So, just to clarify, does that mean the Red team considers this issue already "resolved," and we should not expect any future development to fix the magenta cast?

I think they're still working on the "black sun" issue... Or at least that's what I gathered from prior statements. Magenta cast is an IR issue -- use an IR cut or hot mirror filter. There's really nothing that can be done about that unless they incorporate a greater degree of IR cut ability into the OLPF, which may have other adverse effects.

I shoot lots of outdoors / nature, timelapse sunsets with the sun in-frame, etc... I still stand by what I say about the "black / purple sun" and proper exposure (and filtering, like nomad said). I find that most of the time it can be removed entirely, or almost all the way in "developing" the RAW footage, beyond that, it's a simple fix. Yes, it would be nice if there was no issue at all, but this is one issue that has fallen down the ladder of importance compared to other desired fixes / features. ...At least in my eyes.

If you're still having lots of issues with the "black sun" artifact, post an R3D clip or two -- I'm sure some of us can offer some suggestions.

 

[Robert Berger]

If it's magenta, you have an IR problem. Get a hot mirror filter.

You can only raise the internal IR filter to a certain strenght without sacrificing quality. Ordinary ND filters let most of the IR pass, but – other than film – electronic sensors are very sensitive to IR. This has been discussed at length here at reduser.

With proper filtering I never had any 'black sun' issue even when filming straight into a low sun on my Red (starting at fimware 15).

Regards,

Uli

Sorry to say, shot with IR blockingfilter and still this problem, nothing to do with blocking filters, but a electronic leak or something i think.
I had the same with a hd Ikegami, it went back to the factory and they solved it!

 

[Robert Berger]

I think they're still working on the "black sun" issue... Or at least that's what I gathered from prior statements. Magenta cast is an IR issue -- use an IR cut or hot mirror filter. There's really nothing that can be done about that unless they incorporate a greater degree of IR cut ability into the OLPF, which may have other adverse effects.

I shoot lots of outdoors / nature, timelapse sunsets with the sun in-frame, etc... I still stand by what I say about the "black / purple sun" and proper exposure (and filtering, like nomad said). I find that most of the time it can be removed entirely, or almost all the way in "developing" the RAW footage, beyond that, it's a simple fix. Yes, it would be nice if there was no issue at all, but this is one issue that has fallen down the ladder of importance compared to other desired fixes / features. ...At least in my eyes.

If you're still having lots of issues with the "black sun" artifact, post an R3D clip or two -- I'm sure some of us can offer some suggestions.

No problem fixing it in post, You want to drive a car and put oil in it everytime you put your foot on the gas to go fast?

 

[Bob Chappell]

Call me crazy, but I actually find the black sun useful. When shooting the sun on film or as a digital timelapse sequence with a Nikon D3, the area around the sun is usually burn out into a glowing blob with no defined center. On Red, because the shape of the sun is outlined by being darker, it is easier to maintain the definition of the sun. I've found it pretty simple to turn the "blackness" of the sun into a defined bright shape in the middle of a bright glow. I can usually accomplish this by a slight tweak of the gamma cure in RedCine, but a few more difficult shots may require limited work in After Effects. For me it is not a bug but a feature.

 

[Uli Plank]

Interesting idea, and not so crazy. With some inverted curves you can do it.

Regards,

Uli

 

[Arnaud Paris]

As a user I have no problem fixing it myself. But as a rental house I think it's a bit unrealistic to tell the clients that it's not big deal and that they can just fix it in post. Many times they take it as we're 'forcing' them to have to go through us for post production. I would appreciate if the Red team could explain us why it's so complex for them to fix it. That way I could give a better explanation to my clients.

 

[Finner]

As a user I have no problem fixing it myself. But as a rental house I think it's a bit unrealistic to tell the clients that it's not big deal and that they can just fix it in post.

I agree with you Arno that it really should be something that should be an in camera or red cine/alert 1 button fix.

What I completely disagree with though is that telling a client that something can be fixed in post is unrealistic. It has been a long time since I have been on a shoot (film, hd or red) that at least a couple things were not decided to be fixed in post.

 

[Arnaud Paris]

I agree with you Arno that it really should be something that should be an in camera or red cine/alert 1 button fix.

What I completely disagree with though is that telling a client that something can be fixed in post is unrealistic. It has been a long time since I have been on a shoot (film, hd or red) that at least a couple things were not decided to be fixed in post.

Yes, but that's not what I was saying. I just meant that usually it's not the rental house who says before the shoot even begins 'Oh and if you shoot at the sun it will be funky pink and you'll have to fix it in post'.