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Will Panasonic follow suit and produce a cam with a super 35mm sized sensor?

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Michael Totten

Michael Totten

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Out of curiosity... it's odd that Panasonic has not. I realize they get the majority of their business from ENG/TV business... but it seems incredibly short sighted that they've basically ignored the big chip / cinema market.

RED
Sony
Arri
& Vision Research have all done it and are continuing to improve... Will Panny always be in the 2/3" realm?
 
Well, 2/3" video is by far a larger market than 35mm sensor digital cine cameras -- perhaps Panasonic is merely scratching their heads as to why Sony would want to get involved in the 35mm market.

From their perspective, there is no reason to be first, they can just keep making money on their professional ENG/EFP 2/3" cameras and wait until the business model for 35mm digital cine cameras is solved by Sony, and then step in with a competing model. In the meantime, they can let everyone else spend millions trying to get 35mm video to take off.

It's easy for indie filmmakers to think that 35mm sensor cameras should be a video manufacturer's highest priority, but that's ignoring the fact that the ENG/EFP market is much, much, much larger and more profitable for these companies, and 2/3" video works fine most of the time for those types of productions, with just a little 35mm work thrown in on the side for select shots.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
It's easy for indie filmmakers to think that 35mm sensor cameras should be a video manufacturer's highest priority, but that's ignoring the fact that the ENG/EFP market is much, much, much larger and more profitable for these companies, and 2/3" video works fine most of the time for those types of productions, with just a little 35mm work thrown in on the side for select shots.
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I have found it strange too that people have been so quick to diminish 2/3" videography when in fact it can be a much better choice than the larger chips on certain projects. It's easy to get caught up in cinema style production but I agree with David and others who have said this, there is a much bigger world out there than cinema. And there are a lot of reasons those cameras are designed the way they are. I know most people know why 2/3" is still a very viable format, but others seem to miss the boat on it for some reason.
 
I usually use my RED for narrative projects, but I recorded a corporate conference last month and it was a pain in the butt. I was on a tripod in the back of the room, and because of the 35mm sensor I was pulling focus for eight hours. Then I spent two days converting all the footage to 1080p prores files. I would have killed for a Varicam in that situation.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Well, 2/3" video is by far a larger market than 35mm sensor digital cine cameras -- perhaps Panasonic is merely scratching their heads as to why Sony would want to get involved in the 35mm market.

From their perspective, there is no reason to be first, they can just keep making money on their professional ENG/EFP 2/3" cameras and wait until the business model for 35mm digital cine cameras is solved by Sony, and then step in with a competing model. In the meantime, they can let everyone else spend millions trying to get 35mm video to take off.
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What do you think needs to be solved though? It seems it's more about being able to deliver larger chip cameras for less money... that and convincing producers who are accustomed to shooting on 2/3" systems to move towards larger sensors. Other than that the technology is already here.
 
They are investing in a range 4/3rds format lenses. I would seem a logical step forward for them to marry their P2 technology, HVX series with their (GH1) 4/3rds CMOS sensor and micro 4/3rds mount. This would put them in a niche between 2/3rds and s35.
 
I think the 2/3" satisfies ENG very well, and their 4/3" idea is nice since you get an easy PL mount and approximates S35 properties so long as you find lenses that cover your wide end well. Right? I mean, I am not a rental/op/DP but those seem like smart reasons behind the sensor areas unless I am missing something big.

Red is doing something on a completely different (higher) level. With Red you will be able to shoot with the full area of the sensor you purchase and with any number of smaller formats with area and aspects that fit within. If you didn't want to pull focus why didn't you shoot 2k?
 
Will Panasonic follow suit and produce a cam with a super 35mm sized sensor?
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YES.

What is going to happen to their prosumer line (HVX equivalents) when Scarlet hits? They will be crushed if they don't adapt. Already they are having to cut the price of their Varicams in half. Speaking of which... how can you have a 2/3" 1080/60p camera selling for $60K when a Scarlet 2/3" will shoot RAW at 120fps for $10K?

Something's got to give somewhere.

And the pressure will become even greater if Canon's rumored APS-C or FF35 cine camera materializes in the next year.

I think Panasonic has been hard at work on some larger-sensor cameras for at least a year by now. Possibly RAW as well?
 
Tom, you're ignoring the fact that a 35mm-sensor format is not the best tool for every video application. Does the local news need to be shot with a 35mm sensor and the attendant lens and DOF issues? Does an infomercial on the Home Shopping Network? Does "Animal Cops" or "Lock-Up"?

Everyone seems to see the market from their own particular niche and needs.

Even on shows shooting with 35mm-sensor cameras, the 1/2" EX1 and EX3 are quite popular as crash cams, stunt cams, stick-into-small spaces cams, etc.

Small sensor cameras are not going to go away. And many TV programs are going to want to shoot with cameras that record standard broadcast video formats, not RAW files that need to be transcoded.

All that said, of course Panasonic will eventually release a camera to compete with other cameras.

Didn't a lot of people here claim two years ago that RED would crush Sony?
 
David, I totally understood your point and agree with you regarding ENG, the usefulness of 2/3, etc. I'm just saying, something's got to give on the "cine" side of things with Panasonic. These new cameras from Red, Arri, Canon, etc, are changing the game. A small-sensor prosumer camera won't cut it any longer for the indie/cine crowd, however small they might be compared to ENG, broadcast, etc. Even all the nature shows and similar projects that used to shoot Varicam might be eyeballing the 2/3" Scarlet 120fps RAW, at 1/4 the cost and weight.
 
Tom L said:
David, I totally understood your point and agree with you regarding ENG, the usefulness of 2/3, etc. I'm just saying, something's got to give on the "cine" side of things with Panasonic. These new cameras from Red, Arri, Canon, etc, are changing the game. A small-sensor prosumer camera won't cut it any longer for the indie/cine crowd, however small they might be compared to ENG, broadcast, etc. Even all the nature shows and similar projects that used to shoot Varicam might be eyeballing the 2/3" Scarlet 120fps RAW, at 1/4 the cost and weight.
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Sure, and no doubt Panasonic is looking at creating products to compete with this. They are already far more committed to solid-state recording than Sony has been. On the other hand, they've also tried to get away with lower-rez sensors on cameras like the HVX200 and uprezzing them to get HD...

But like I said, a lot of people here said "why would anyone ever by a Sony camcorder once the RED ONE comes out? Sony is going to be out of business soon!" There are a lot of needs in the market, and a lot of tools to meet those needs. Panasonic is either going to compete head-on with cameras like the Scarlet or DSLR's... or they are going to create products that side-step the market that the Scarlet and DSLR's are going for. And maybe they'll miscalculate, or maybe they will succeed.

The truth is that despite the desire for people to embrace new technologies, there is nothing particularly wrong with the old-fashioned shoulder-mounted ENG-style camcorder. It does certain things particularly well.

Weight-wise, the human body isn't going to change and there is a point in camera weight where it has to go from being wrist-supported to being shoulder-supported. Lately we've seen a lot of monstro wrist-held cameras which are rather cumbersome and uncomfortable after awhile -- some heavier shoulder-mounted cameras are actually more comfortable to hold for long periods compared to the smaller, lighter wrist-held cameras.

So either cameras have to stay very small or they can make the size and weight-leap to being shoulder-mounted. So I don't think Panasonic has to necessarily abandon the shoulder-mounted ENG-type of camcorders (I'm thinking of EPK people walking around for hours at some movie premiere...) On the other hand, you're probably thinking that the nature photographer who has to hike miles into the wilderness with his camera gear in a backpack is going to want something as light as possible, and once he sets up, the camera isn't going to be handheld.
 
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just thinking from your texts..
what if RED produced a tape based recording module that records video streams besides the raw? say HDV recording module..
then what the game would be for sony and panasonic broadcast market?
imagine 2/3" scarlet interchangable or fixed with HDV module.. why would any one buy any other tape based camera in the other classes 1/3" 1/2" etc..?
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
I would rather electrocute myself than shoot broadcast situations (reality tv, sports, news) with a RED ONE or any digital cinema camera.. 2/3 cameras arent going ANYWHERE
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I share your sentiments on this one. In many off the grid situations using a tape based camera is also advantageous.

Mohammed El Sharqawy said:
just thinking from your texts..
what if RED produced a tape based recording module that records video streams besides the raw? say HDV recording module..
then what the game would be for sony and panasonic broadcast market?
imagine 2/3" scarlet interchangable or fixed with HDV module.. why would any one buy any other tape based camera in the other classes 1/3" 1/2" etc..?
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same. Due to the data rates it would have to be something comparable to HDCAM-SR. What if it used LTO4 tapes?
 
Michael Totten said:
Out of curiosity... it's odd that Panasonic has not. I realize they get the majority of their business from ENG/TV business... but it seems incredibly short sighted that they've basically ignored the big chip / cinema market.

RED
Sony
Arri
& Vision Research have all done it and are continuing to improve... Will Panny always be in the 2/3" realm?
Click to expand...

I predict Panavision will follow Red's lead and develop their own 35mm and up sensor by bootstrapping or acquisition (partner with Kodak for old times' sake?). They've indicated as much. However, I don't expect them to abandon their rental business model. I expect a HEAVYIRON all-in-one system, all proprietary solid state media (Kodak cold-war attic raiding maybe?). Think Genesis II or "Aquarius"?. They almost are required to follow this line of development based on firmly entrenched corporate/engineering culture.

Downsides: Lengthy R&D path will yield amazing tech bonanza short-term, that will see funding hamstrung by over-reliance on Rental biz model and undercut by continued aggressive development by RED and others on sensor front. Veteran DP community will protect Panavision's market share in Old Hollywood by artificially lauding Pana's new tech, color, dynamic range, etc. However, the expense of renting the system will prevent new talent from becoming proficient on the new gear and the plethora of capable cameras from Arri, Red and others coupled with erosion of numbers of big-budget films being made, or needing a traditional camera at all for production will limit the effectiveness of this strategy for market share gain, but could provide years of continued coasting / relevance.

Or not...
 
Scarlet

Scarlet

There is a reason that Scarlet offers a 2/3" model (two actually) and that's because 2/3" optics complement 35mm optics.

Different use cases, different needs, different customers; also 2/3" doesn't automatically mean Electronic News Gathering....
 
Also, the new specs about in-camera debayering might change the way RED is perceived in the ENG world
 
Jeff Coatney said:
I predict Panavision will follow Red's lead and develop their own 35mm and up sensor by bootstrapping or acquisition (partner with Kodak for old times' sake?).
Click to expand...

We were talking about Panasonic, not Panavision...

Yes, it will make a difference to some if Scarlet can create and record a 1080P version for those people who don't want to deal with R3D files.
 
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