Scarlet Rentals

[Zac C]

Scarlet and rental shouldnt be in the same sentence to be honest...

Unless youve made your mark in the rental biz and have clientele.. your scarlets wont work except for the occasional craigslist post/college kid...

not trying to shit on anyone's parade.. but im pretty sure this will be the case.

I agree completely, I'm going to drop about 10-12k on Scarlet and at first thought I could just rent it out willy nilly to the first bidder. It then took a while for me to realize, I can't go this alone, I've never done this before, I'm going to need some help paying this camera off by renting it (I can't accept jobs if I can't edit it completely, so renting and having a separate editor seems the way to go for the first few months.

So I'm now in talks with a great guy who's willing to rent my scarlet through him with him taking in 20% of the rental profits right off the bat. I'd expect the first few months everyone will be wanting to shoot on Scarlet, so charging 500-600 a day would be worth my while, then after 6 months, if the market is saturated, lower prices to match and stay in the system.

We Shall See

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

You think that the fact that there are a lot of Scarlets will dry up demand?

I doubt that. Your suggestion is out of step with market realities.

How many F900's do you think are out there? How many HVX200s? How many EX1s? EX3s?

For all of those cameras the numbers are well over 100,000 units. They still rent for multiple hundreds per day.

I still rent my XL-1 occasionally for $100 a day. You read that right, XL-1. Not XL-1S, not XL-H1, the original standard definition no XLR input XL-1 from 1999. $100 per day.

If you take all the XL models into account, there are probably a half million out there, the vast majority of them are more advanced than my unit.

So, my advice is that you keep your rental prices UP. 5-6% of your purchase price per day on your rate card. A lot of places are doing deals at 4%... but the rate card still says 5.5%. 1.5 days buys a weekend. 3 days buys a 7 day week.

That may be where some of you are getting your rate notions. If I rent my RED Body kit at $750 per day, then a weeks rental is $2250, or $320 per day.

Price your camera and lens kits separately. Lenses should go around 1.5-2.5% of purchase price. Lenses should last longer than cameras, so you can afford to take longer to pay them off.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Then don't be surprised that DP's won't be hired too...since some tech head within the company will play, shoot and do some amazing work then he will be hired as the DP.

Honestly.. NOT going to happen.. unless this TECH head is also an amazing cinematographer..

DP's are worth their weight in gold.. and they arent going to trust some guy who happens to know camera menus to be in charge of the look of their big commercial..

however.. what i do see happening is the the commercial bubble popping.

just like music videos did..
Remember 97-99 when music videos were shot with budgets more than $5,000..

like the 250,000-1 mil mark?...

big budget commercials will also take a hit soon..
producers wont be making the same kind of money they have been..

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

You think that the fact that there are a lot of Scarlets will dry up demand?

I doubt that. Your suggestion is out of step with market realities.

That may be where some of you are getting your rate notions. If I rent my RED Body kit at $750 per day, then a weeks rental is $2250, or $320 per day.

Price your camera and lens kits separately. Lenses should go around 1.5-2.5% of purchase price. Lenses should last longer than cameras, so you can afford to take longer to pay them off.

when i got my camera march 2007, I had a good 4 months of solid rentals.. after that things dried up.
Ill rent it out occasionally when I go as a tech or DP...but I never Rent it out by itself.. Not only because I dont want to be in the rental biz, but also because of the dried up market
i dont think that... I know that!

Im talking for an LA perspective.. LA, NEW YORK, MIAMI, ATLANTA..
The Hot spots..

Good luck renting your glass out separately.. Doesnt work like that anymore.
when someone comes to you asking for "your best rate"
That basically means.. they want everything included.. and guess what.. send them a number, the kid down the street will beat that price..the kid down the street from him will beat THAT price.

Rentals on a single owner basis will no longer work.

My point is this.. dont expect to make money from your camera package UNLESS, its YOU they are hiring.. then you can tell them you have a camera package, but ill bet you they wont pay much if anything for it.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

so charging 500-600 a day would be worth my while, then after 6 months, if the market is saturated, lower prices to match and stay in the system.

We Shall See

500-600 wont happen. there will be an immediate saturation of scarlets, and unless you have the infrastructure in place (clients, glass, aks, reputation)
its going to be hard to get your gear out on a profit.

 

[Felix K.]

there will be an immediate saturation of scarlets

You keep saying that. I'm not so sure about that. There has never been an official statement from RED.

 

[Rick Presas]

its a different world.. demand for HVX isnt as High.. and therefore the few people who really do RENT out there hvx's are low in numbers.. even though everyone and their mom owns one.. only a few actually rent it out.

Every rental house ive ever been in or visited online rent out HVXs

The Scarlet will, IMO, have a tremendous rental market. Price point of the unit has little to do with it. If it's over $1,000 (which a good scarlet will likely be at least $6,000) then it is still more cost effective to rent a camera for a one-week shoot than to buy one outright.

It's like saying that since houses right now are selling for cheaper than they have in decades, logically the apartment business would be going under. It might make some degree of sense, but ultimately its just not the case.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

time will tell.. but like a dvx100.. everyone will have a scarlet

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

when i got my camera march 2007, I had a good 4 months of solid rentals.. after that things dried up.
Ill rent it out occasionally when I go as a tech or DP...but I never Rent it out by itself.. Not only because I dont want to be in the rental biz, but also because of the dried up market
i dont think that... I know that!

Im talking for an LA perspective.. LA, NEW YORK, MIAMI, ATLANTA..
The Hot spots..

Good luck renting your glass out separately.. Doesnt work like that anymore.
when someone comes to you asking for "your best rate"
That basically means.. they want everything included.. and guess what.. send them a number, the kid down the street will beat that price..the kid down the street from him will beat THAT price.

Rentals on a single owner basis will no longer work.

My point is this.. dont expect to make money from your camera package UNLESS, its YOU they are hiring.. then you can tell them you have a camera package, but ill bet you they wont pay much if anything for it.

Wow.

OK, first off RED doesn't have a history of high volume delivery. Not at all like say Panasonic, Canon and Sony. There may be a good long period during which demand for these cameras far outstrips availability.

Perhaps you don't remember when a RED body only was going for $1500 per day or more, and a full kit could run $10000 USD per week. That didn't last, but it was INSANE for a while there.

Even SD video cameras still rent for a decent bit of cash. HVX's still go for a couple hundred at rental. Have you actually researched the rental market in LA or elsewhere?

Check these out (all in LA):

http://www.hdcamerarentals.com/cameras/HV20/

http://www.hdcamerarentals.com/cameras/HVX200/

http://www.indierentals.com/?page=category&id=160309

http://www.indierentals.com/?page=category&id=160307

My favorite is the HV20 for $95 per day, for a camera that isn't sold most places anymore because its discontinued, and that you can buy new for less than $900 ready to run. Again there are hundreds of thousands of that model out there.

What you are saying sir has no basis in market research.

There are plenty of cases where a user can rent their glass separately. I usually rent mine as a line item in a package, but you can and I do rent glass without cameras.

Your final point has more merit, but I'd state it much more weakly.

How about: Unless you are already or seek to establish a rental facility, expect that the bulk of your earnings from owning a camera will come from getting hired for your work as a DP/Operator. Rentals will be an occasional supplement, and probably will not pay the bills.

So, and I can't state this strongly enough: Don't be in a rush to the bottom in a price war. Offer the camera for rental, I'd knock about 10 or 15% off the rates you see at rental houses local to YOU.

Don't expect rentals more often than once every couple of months. Make sure to get insurance certs naming you, check out the coverage. Take payment up front, along with a security deposit that covers the deductible on the insurance policy.

 

[Stephen Williams]

A good start for figuring out the rental price is around 5.5% of the price of the gear - that's what the other cameras usually rent for, roughly. So, if you rent out a reasonable fixed Scarlet kit that cost you $ 6000, a good starting point would be $330 a day. Everything under that will be "cheap".

$50 or $100 a day is "ridiculously dirt cheap", even for the bare brain only.

That seems very high IMO, EX1's rent for about $200 from rental houses near me, that's list before any discount.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

2.5% is a good starting rate for a standard product before discounts...

 

[MikeBarber]

$50 to $100 is pretty cheap

Too cheap. Do you want just any asshole with $100 to take out your camera and treat it like a $100 P.O.S.? There's something to be said about pricing the idiots out of the market. People will treat the equipment better if they're paying more to rent it.

Also, I wouldn't rent from someone who asks so little a price. At that rate, I'm going to assume that you don't know the camera's value and therefor have not maintained it properly. I'm going to rent from a pro house that charges pro prices because they know the camera and how to maintain it so that when I pick it up, I have confidence it is most likely in good working order.

That's my two cents.

 

[MikeBarber]

there will be an immediate saturation of scarlets

That's an awfully big assumption considering no one outside of the RED elite will know right now how many units will be ready to ship. As far as we know, and the more likely scenario, is that there will be some backorders and waiting periods.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Mike... You sorta have a point. It will be hard to get rental rates that will sustain the maintainance for a Scarlet.
I think it will be sustainable with Epic...
And I hope/think I am right in that assumption.

OTOH, the Scarlet will kill off even more of the rental of cams than the One did, I guess. We already see it here in Norway with the R1. It has raised the need for glass and accessories bigtime for the rental houses, but the cam rental has gone down significantly. As it looks like the only filmlab here may well do shortly...

Makes sense, though...

As a sidenote - Norwegian Cinemas aim for 100% DCP coverage within a year or so here film will die faster than in other markets. Scarlet certainly will not slow down that process...

Note to anyone:
This was not a quality of film vs digital statement, just some musings around the impact of RED (+ HPX-3000) and DCP in a small country where not one sinmgle company have afforded even an F23 - not to even mention an F35...

 

[MikeBarber]

Epics will start off at 1500/day package for the first few guys.. but then once more get out, It will hit the 600/day mark

I find it very unlikely that a camera that will be in the same class as the Dalsas, Arris, etc will go that low. Canada and US market prices are not so different in my experience. Right now an HDCAM camera body, for example, starts at $1,500/day... just the body. Kits are naturally higher.

 

[MikeBarber]

That seems very high IMO, EX1's rent for about $200 from rental houses near me

EX1 also shoots compressed 35 mbps long-GOP 1080p video and is quite limited in its overcranking frame rates in comparison.

The EX1 is a fine camera, I'm using it on for my documentary and have been considering buying one with an AJA Ki-PRO (and will if the Scarlet takes another year to release)... but let's not put it and Scarlet on the same level. From a purely technical level, they shoot very differently. And that is a relevant factor in the pricing.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I find it very unlikely that a camera that will be in the same class as the Dalsas, Arris, etc will go that low. Canada and US market prices are not so different in my experience. Right now an HDCAM camera body, for example, starts at $1,500/day... just the body. Kits are naturally higher.

But a HDCAM body costs more...

When there is sufficient saturation, rentals normalise...

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Alexander.. Yes i know the history of red.. A camera company that was new to the game.. had no current cameras in production and were self admittedly figuring out things as they went.

I think its safe to say, they have figured out a lot more in the last 2 years then they had pre-RED.

I dont have the quote handy, but maybe someone can find it.. where Jarred or Jim said that things wouldnt be like they were with the RED ONE. They said something about getting the cameras out to the masses right off the bat.

These cameras wont trickle out.

Youll see 100 cameras here.. then 200 the next week.. so on..

the 1500/day prices went to the first 50 camera owners.
Those 50 cameras had the market all by themselves from august 07 to november 07.
then the numbers went to 100 until decemberish.

So as you can see... the numbers were LOW hence the demand in price.

All im saying.. is dont plan your income or plan for paying off your kit with rentals..
You wont get the prices your looking for.

 

[Stephen Williams]

EX1 also shoots compressed 35 mbps long-GOP 1080p video and is quite limited in its overcranking frame rates in comparison.

The EX1 is a fine camera, I'm using it on for my documentary and have been considering buying one with an AJA Ki-PRO (and will if the Scarlet takes another year to release)... but let's not put it and Scarlet on the same level. From a purely technical level, they shoot very differently. And that is a relevant factor in the pricing.

Hi,

Generally my clients have a budget to spend, they are not really interested in details such as overcranking or long-GOP, they just want the job done often very cheaply.

2 years ago I had a client who used to shoot with a 'Viper' when there was a budget, On a charity job with 'zero' budget, I shot 1 roll of 35mm, it was way cheaper. Today that client uses a 5DMKII for most of their commercials.

Stephen

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I find it very unlikely that a camera that will be in the same class as the Dalsas, Arris, etc will go that low. Canada and US market prices are not so different in my experience. Right now an HDCAM camera body, for example, starts at $1,500/day... just the body. Kits are naturally higher.

It doesnt matter what class the camera is in.. it can produce IDENTICAL images to Sony, Arri.. so on.. but guess what?

How many here are going to fork out the 200K for a f35?
or the NOT privately owned d20-d21..

those get high rental rates because there are a handful of those cameras.

there will be a SHITLOAD of scarlets.. do you see the difference?