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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Audio Feature / Specification Request

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Stuart English

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If its not already done why not create a list of the top issues users would like to see from scarlet/epic audio may help lock down those features that professional users need.
Click to expand...

Good idea.

Time to start a new thread as we haven't had too many responses to the "audio expectations" request yet....

And I think it would also be useful to separate those into "soft" and "hard" categories as follows -


Soft would be comments like -

"easy to use", "conforms to expectations", "doesn't add color", "shouldn't sound quiet in FCP", "use full size XLRs" etc


Hard would be specifications like -

"I need xx dB of headroom above what I'd set at peak operating level", "I need a minimum of xx dB s/n", I need xx mA at xx V to power my xx microphone" "the max RMS voltage the audio section should accepts should be xx V RMS" etc


p.s. I'll set up a new thread to discuss any points raised, let's use this one as a raw capture of your input...
 
Soft comments -

1) a physical knob to adjust gain on each channel. 4 channels = 4 knobs. (just has to happen). Having the mic vs. line level and phantom power be physical switches would be nice too.

2) Ability to route 1 XLR input to 2 or more channels with each of those channels set at different gain levels. One physical input routing to 4 tracks all recording different gain levels pretty much eliminates the need for a mixer in fast moving situations where sound could range from a whisper to a scream. (Reality TV, Indie Horror movie, street interviews etc.)

3) The best preamps you can get... but suggestion 2 above helps with this tremendously because perfectly set gain boosts your sound quality when using lesser pre's. In camera the pre is never going to be like a $2000 studio preamp.

4) I need to be able to see the levels when I'm changing gain. Tossing some leds or lcd's on the side of the camera just for audio levels would be nice. Anyone near the camera could look over and monitor gain levels.

5) I'd like to see the orientation of the XLR inputs be such that the plugs hang straight down as opposed to sideways off the camera like RED has currently. I'm curious if others think that would be better or worse and why.
 
Hard Comments:
I am not a sound guy but I agree with Joel's suggestions. Also a simple way to automatic sync timecode when connected to an external recorder.
I also think hard switches are the logical choice rather than menu based control for ease of use. The downward facing xlr's seems like an interesting idea, sound guys may differ.
I think this sound module would be an interesting direction for Red to take and a somewhat logical one. As it allows users to use a dual recording system and also offers a quality run and gun audio option.
My 2 cents
 
I've already suggested Red solicit "hard" interface requirements input from Sound Devices, but they should also ask other industry audio companies for suggestions. Talking to SMPTE and other international bodies would also be a good idea, but answers will probably come quicker from audio manufacturers.
 
Joel's suggestions are all good. This is one of the areas where Red should really take the best features from the old guard like Sony, Panasonic et al, and make them even better.

Hard audio controls exist on even the lowliest semi-pro cameras.

I'd think that downward facing XLR inputs would be awkward to plug up and may well foul on tripod plates and other grip equipment, but staggered full size XLR sockets on the side allowing dense packing of right angle Neutrik type XLRs with cables hanging straight down would go some way to a compact form factor and tidy cables.
 
A partnership between Red and Sound Devices would be a marriage made in heaven.

But if that is fantasy, then what Joel says. It is imperative to have more immediate access to audio gain and also monitoring. Also a good quality headphone output is essential.

One possibility I suppose is to offer two separate and differently priced audio modules - the standard and the deluxe model with the latter offering just the best quality components and functionality?
 
Joel Kaye said:
Soft comments -

1) a physical knob to adjust gain on each channel. 4 channels = 4 knobs. (just has to happen). Having the mic vs. line level and phantom power be physical switches would be nice too.

2) Ability to route 1 XLR input to 2 or more channels with each of those channels set at different gain levels. One physical input routing to 4 tracks all recording different gain levels pretty much eliminates the need for a mixer in fast moving situations where sound could range from a whisper to a scream. (Reality TV, Indie Horror movie, street interviews etc.)

3) The best preamps you can get... but suggestion 2 above helps with this tremendously because perfectly set gain boosts your sound quality when using lesser pre's. In camera the pre is never going to be like a $2000 studio preamp.

4) I need to be able to see the levels when I'm changing gain. Tossing some leds or lcd's on the side of the camera just for audio levels would be nice. Anyone near the camera could look over and monitor gain levels.

5) I'd like to see the orientation of the XLR inputs be such that the plugs hang straight down as opposed to sideways off the camera like RED has currently. I'm curious if others think that would be better or worse and why.
Click to expand...

You are essentially talking about the sound section of an ENG camcorder. There's nothing bad with this, on the contary. There are many reasons why they are build like this. Perhaps Red could build a sound module for the DMSC that is excatly this: The sound section of an ENG camcorder including a compartment for a remote sound reciever.

For the RedOne this is phyhsically impossible.

Hans
 
This may seem like an odd place to post this, but I would love to see a simple timecode input upon the brain itself. No generator required, just a way to timestamp every clip. With that one could sync multiple cameras as well as a camera with sound without the need for an entire sound module...

That being said, if I was building a sound module from scratch I would surely look under the hood of eveything Nagra has put out. In my opinion they're sound is unrivaled with respect to A to D's that can take filming conditions, and their amplifiers are crystal clear.
 
Rob Castiglione said:
...a good quality headphone output is essential.

One possibility I suppose is to offer two separate and differently priced audio modules - the standard and the deluxe model with the latter offering just the best quality components and functionality?
Click to expand...

It'd be good to have a full size 1/4" headphone socket. The tiny one on the Red One is OK for iPods and stuff, but far too fragile for pro use really.

Like the two priced audio idea.
 
1. Pots and visible meters.

2. Hardware switch for mic/line.

3. I would like to see it calibrated to +4dBu, with 18dB of headroom above that level.
That way, normal pro mixers and preamps can feed optimal levels.

4. Mic input should feature phantom power that functions with most 48v mics.

5. Really good A/D converters

Clearly normal XLR inputs are more universal, but if you run out of room, the minis can work.

Recorded levels should translate directly (the same level dBFS) to edit systems. I don't know if this is the recording algorithm or Red Alert that accomplishes this.

As Hans pointed out, this is basically the input section of any camcorder. Should be quite easy, with lots of tried and true models to follow.
 
Amen to pretty much all of what's been said before. Either one calls the RED a soundless camera, that's fine, that's how i treat it as it is. If though, as every RED owner loves to do to no end, the camera is offered as the do-it-all, then it has to offer the very basics pretty much every camcorder out there does, hell, the DVX100 delivers better audio than the RED.
We need 'standard' mic/line inputs (if they have to be miniXLR so be it, that's not the problem), we need physical dials and switches. There is no time for the audio department to delve through menus to change things. I personally do not touch menus on a camera, I will ask the AC to do that, I think the AC has other things to do!
We need a headphone output that actually powers headphones!
We need built-in TC that actually is stable!
We need to be able to check TC on the lcd monitor - but not in the way as it is now, like, yeah, it's 1 (2, 5, whatever) frames off but in reality it's spot-on......? I understand that's hard to do when the camera in normal soundstage use needs icepacks on all sides to actually work?
And yes, mic/line level standards like +4db are just that, standards. There is absolutely no need for RED to come up with a 'new' standard that's known to RED only. The camera has to work like any other professional camera in the field. As long as it doesn't do that it'll always be the troubled child.
Regarding the 'standard' and the 'deluxe' module: my choice goes more along the line there should be 'no' sound or there should be 'standard' sound. I do not care about 4 audio tracks on a camera because nobody's gonna monitor that anyway. Stuart, please take any professional Panasonic camera, lift the audio part und you're good to go. Stick with the standards, no need for 96k or what have you, my recorder does that better anyway. Collaborating with SoundDevices would be a very good idea. Insant street cred.
As it is now, for the sound mixer working with a RED camera is annoying. Me thinks this camera deserves better.
 
Audio Specs

Audio Specs

We need a headphone output that actually powers headphones!

We need built-in TC that actually is stable!

And yes, mic/line level standards like +4db are just that, standards. There is absolutely no need for RED to come up with a 'new' standard that's known to RED only.

The camera has to work like any other professional camera in the field. As long as it doesn't do that it'll always be the troubled child.
Click to expand...

Karl, I appreciate this "soft spec" input but have to take issue to quite a lot of what you have said here.

Agreed that 0dBU is a different line input standard to the more common +4dBU, but it is a standard.

Timecode is extremely stable, so I'm not sure what your experience is that runs counter to that.

Care to add any other "hard specs" or additional comments to clarify what you think is not quite there on the existing audio system?

BTW - are you on the Rev 1 or Rev 2 audio board?
 
After further investigation into TC being stable or not it seems that TC might be stable but the number being shown on the monitor don't confirm that. So what's a poor sound mixer going to do? Either tape a lockit onto the camera and play safe or tell the producer to have some 'trust' into this? Please, understand that I don't come from the owner/operator group - I just work there. TC numbers on the monitor on my last production were 'erratic'. the camera was supposedly in best condition with all the latest bells and whistles. I don't know if audio board 1 or 2.

Stuart, 0db might be 'standard' somewhere, in the professional camera world it seems a bit hard to find. Please tell me which other camera(s) ask for 0db levels. Why even defend anomalies like that. There's all kinds of lens mounts out there and still the RED uses 'the' standard for professional shoots, right?

Now, I asked on this forum if it's a known issue that supposedly 'TC numbers in the monitor are not to be trusted but the numbers in reality are dead on' and I couldn't get a clear answer on that.

Can you answer that question? What other things I said do you have issues with?
 
The Sound Devices 552 can output 4 channels of AES3 audio, and it would be awesome if DSMC audio modules could support this.
 
Stuart, not sure this was mentioned before. I would like to see the audio board with extra CF card slot and with the ability to keep on going recording sound uninterrupted by stopping and starting the picture recording.
Marc
 
Personally, I'd like to see a totally separate audio module. Barring that:

1. On board limiter.
2. Dial control of audio ins from +12db to -infinity (right now it's only at either +10 or 0). As dB is a log scale, +12 will be 4 times (2 squared) 0 level. It's silly to have it +10 because that is a reference to a balanced audio signal, not now much gain you can put on whatever signal is coming in. And, it needs to be able to be dialed to below 0.
3. Hardware digital audio ins
4. 96k 24 bit audio (not all audio recorded on a RED is dialog)
5. Full-sized XLR ins or right angle mini XLRs. The minis are too delicate and there is too much weight put on the ports by hanging adapter cables.
6. Lundahl transformers in the analog input chain.
7. More accurate/detailed metering, in dB, not in some random unit measurement.
 
Stuart just a quick question please ! if this is not possible please excuse me; I am just thinking out loud and am not an audio person.
What about creating a wireless i/o module for the Red camera that could connect to a remote i/o device or module with all the above features. This would eliminate the need for direct audio connection on the camera itself, with a range of say 100 feet the operator could if they wish control the audio in run and gun documentary situations or in a professional film shoot could hire a sound man. It would also mean the unit could be physically bigger and contain quality pre amps and controls without compromising the audio quality. The I/O Module on the Red would in fact be a Receiver with different channels recording audio directly to the camera, no more sync problems. Not sure how the audio levels would work, or if the audio quality could be maintained, like I said this is just a thought and may get some audio guys thinking.

Regards
Till
 
tillHavis, from an audio guy's perspective, there are so many reasons why that wouldn't work (frequency block choice, interference from the camera, etc), but the main one is that there is already so much great wireless audio gear out there. RED audio has weaknesses that aren't related to wired/wireless issues, and those weaknesses are not eliminated by creating a wireless module. It's a much better use of their resources to just make a clip to hang a great lectrosonics receiver on it, than to make their own wireless unit. RED audio could use better A/D converters, better preamps, etc and better software control on the audio board they've already got.
 
I for one, speaking from a sound guy's perspective (both production an post production), I'd like to see a RED Recorder, something completely separate from the camera. Lets face it. If you are shooting at 3-5k, dealing with moving cameras, and all so often need 6-8 channels on set, you need audio dealt with separately. All of this effort to
What i'd like to see:
Clean, QUIET pre-amps.
Good limiters on each channel.
SIMPLE.
time-code, obvious.

Let me give you some perspective, from a post sound guy's viewpoint.
1. Editors and DP's don't give the respect that is deserved to audio. Some do, for sure, but not many. They, understandably, are more visual that aural artists. It's not their concern. In my experience, they have more to learn about audio... Thus, in post, audio handled by these two generally suffers.

2. When it comes time to load/transcode into the computer, more often than not, is done by overworked assistant editors (some of the hardest working people in post), or even worse, interns. Audio gets easily flubbed. 95% of the time on feature films, audio that is given to the sound department in the form of OMF is dropped in favor of what the recordist on location records. (most of what is recived from the picture departments are mixdowns. We sound editors want to work with the split tracks, (read booms and lavs).

3. Location recordist do a wonderful job. Their equipment is better. They are very familiar with it.

4. Wild tracks. Nothing makes the job of a sound editor easier (besides well recorded production audio) than the wild track that saves the day. Wind machines running during that critical scene? a quick once over just off set while the talent is still in character... saves a costly ADR session. That unique location or object? An observant recordist gets it wild. And don't forget room tone!!!

5. Sound Effects gathering. The best sound is does not come from a CD. It is recorded. A cost effective recorder would stimulate people to record more. Movie sound would improve.




My point is this:

I really think that if you are shooting with the quality of a RED, don't let the audio suffer. Handle it separately, with a mix-down going to the camera for sync. I know this might be a bit idealistic, but we're Pro's.



So Jannard and crew, if you are listening, MAKE A RED RECORDER!!!!!! Do what you did with video, and apply it to audio. Absolute quality and performance; industry changing price. I'd buy 2!!!
 
Hard

Zero level Tone 0.775V lines up to -18 db on line in. ie normal broadcast line up. This should give 10db headroom on normal operation. ie ) level tone is -8 with respect to peak level.

48V phantom capable of suppling power to all mics, some require higher current than others. Switchable on or off. make sure phantom is limited to a short wont damage the phantom PSU or feed resistors.

Consider 12V T power option.

Noise free very high headroom preamp ala SQN mixers.

Audio via Analogue, AES/EBU and G/bit Enet.

Full size XLR mandatory

Headphone monitoring cia 1/4 stereo jack. NO 1/8 jacks for any purpose on ANY camera ie Scarlet.

Use 5 pin XLR for Audio out.

Option to monitor any channel in Mono on both ears. Option to monitor either 1/2 or 3/4 on both ears. A/B or M/S matrix decode on stereo monitoring.

Include audio level display on RedMote. Peak Programme Meters bar graph are mandatory. Possible consider VU, personally id never use VU but some people do. use peak overload hold, option to auto clear after 5 secs or user definealbe or manual clear.

Soft

Use a knob that has a touch identifyable position ie you can feel where it is set blind. ie like SQN, have a cover for it to avoid accidental operation.

Consider metadata/Audio/data exchange to software and other devices such as metacorder via G/bit or 802.11 is its available.
 
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