The Cure for Scarlet Fever

[Tim Whitcomb]

In response to all those tacky and pointless desperation posts about how RED somehow shattered people's dreams and business models by choosing to perfect their cameras before shipping and now they are going to kill themselves, or buy a Canon, Nikon, etc...

Please rent the following movies...

1. The STORY of Anvil- INCREDIBLE doc, shot on the shittiest beta cam footage I have seen since the 90's. The KILLER true story renders the footy irrelevant, shot on Scarlett would not have made this film one iota better.

2. 28 Days Later - Killer movie shot on DVX-100 (EDIT CANON XL-1) lets just say SD video shall we?. The style supported the format.

3. Rent the Blair Witch project. One of the poorest filmed movies of all time.
Again, the shitty footy, was incorporated into the story.

4. Clerks, crappy 16mm B&W footy. Dialogue that appealed to the masses made it easy to forgive how god awful that film looks.

What is the common denominator?

STORY RULES. NOT CAMERAS.

That goes for weddings and commercials and everything else that is FILMED.

If the story rocks, the medium is irrelevant. The best cure for this Scarlett fever is to spend the SAME energy or more focused on your stories...

and then perhaps you will stop deluding yourself (and your investors) into thinking that somehow a $3K camera will make you better able to compete on any level... it wont, if you don't have a good story, if anything it will magnify your shortcomings even more than lesser footage will.

cheers to a speedy recovery!

 

[alex lemon]

Excellent post and I totally agree.

But why limit this just to people interested in Scarlet? Granted the vocal minority of Scarlet whiners have been the loudest, most disrespectful and most obnoxious of all, but I would also say the exact same applies to all of the tacky posts about how "Billy Bob #26,874 is getting his Epic trade-in bargain a few weeks before I get mine and this will just ruin my life and its not fair and I'm holding my breath until RED changes their mind." (hehehe, ok i exaggerate a bit...)

 

[Martin Weiss]

Thanks, Tim, for putting things into perspective.

Also: you don't need a camera at all to make a feature film. You better spend the money on hiring a DP with a camera, and you can concentrate on the story.

"Once" is also an amazing film despite the technical shortcoming. One might even argue that these shortcomings make the film so believable.

 

[John Nguyen]

I don't think many people were complaining about their dreams or business models being shattered because they can't get a Red Scarlet. The problem is that the RED team knew that a lot of people were anticipating a "release schedule" this Oct 30th and did not tell us that instead it would only be a "release order." They obviously knew well ahead of time that they would not have a Scarlet release date and that's fine. But they knew that that was what we were lead to believe they had and they did not step in to let us know that we were wrong.

And actually, I did hold off the start of a project anticipating the Scarlet release this year NOT because I thought having a Scarlet would make it killer, but because I did not want to start shooting it and have to deal with matching footage when I made the switch. A simple courtesy announcement that Oct 30th would not contain a release date would have helped me out on that end (since we already knew the Scarlet was being released at least one stage behind the Epic, and from that we could've deduced the Scarlet was far from being release ready. A release date being Oct 30th made it realistically possible that the camera would hit the shelves before year's end).

Now that I'm pretty certain that the Scarlet won't be out until several months into 2010 at the earliest, my cure for Scarlet fever will be a 7D. When the Scarlet comes out, I'll see how the next gen of VDSLRs compare and decide then whether to pick up a Scarlet.

I'm sure most of us are level-headed enough to know that the content makes the project, not the camera. The issue was always about just knowing ahead of time that we shouldn't have been anticipating the Scarlet release date like we were lead to believe.

 

[Vince K]

Thanx Tim for posting that!! Just in time too!

I was about to incorporate a "wah wah wahhhhhhhh" muted trumbone from SNL's Debbie Downer everytime I read a 'No Scarlet Yet????" rant......getting sick of seeing so many of them pop up quite frankly.

 

[alex lemon]

I think Nov 30th should clarify a lot. It'll be nice to see a release horizon for 2/3". Even if it's a rough schedule it should be exciting news. It'd be really nice to see more footage from the cameras as well! Particularly low-light tests (hint, hint, nudge, nudge)!

 

[rod bradley]

Yes indeed, and there are dozens of examples of wonderful films shot with get-by cameras.

Many films have technical polish and little else. Indeed it's possible something like the 60 million dollar The Happening by a huge name director who claimed (in retrospect) it was a B movie -- would've produced a bit more palatable embarrassment had he shot it on a DVX-100 instead of Panavision on Kodak stock.

 

[alex lemon]

Thanx Tim for posting that!! Just in time too!

I was about to incorporate a "wah wah wahhhhhhhh" muted trumbone from SNL's Debbie Downer everytime I read a 'No Scarlet Yet????" rant......getting sick of seeing so many of them pop up quite frankly.

personally I kept thinking of the "world's smallest violin", hehe :nopity:

 

[Ethan Cooper]

28 Days Later - Killer movie shot on DVX-100. The style supported the format.

I thought they shot the majority of it in film but also used multiple XL1's on certain scenes where the director wanted multiple simultaneous angles with few takes.

 

[christopher alley]

Incredibly well said Tim. Another great bit of well articulated perspective in the increasingly populated and noise-filled reduser world.
The things that hold up over time do so not because of the technology, but because of innovative use of that technology to tell a story... something I think remains true whether it's stills, docs, nature, efp, narrative film, comic books or legos.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

I think 28 Days Later - was shot on some canon XL1 and a mini 35 subtitute... Not that that change your point=). Yes content is the king! not the camera. Than again it doesnt do any harm to polish the content witch great tools. I also prefer that Red perfect their cameras before shipping. Once I get an Scarlet and sell my other camera it would suck big times if i had to send in the Scarlet for bugfixing. So therefor its better to release it when ready.
Cheers

 

[christopher alley]

My understanding was that 28 Days was shot almost entirely on the Canons, with some 35 for the big gas station explosion money shot (I'm sure like most features they had quite a few cameras rolling on that one). But the fact that we are of mixed understanding just helps to prove Tim's point that it's largely in the crafting of the story to the medium you have at hand.

 

[John Caballero]

In response to all those tacky and pointless desperation posts about how RED somehow shattered people's dreams and business models by choosing to perfect their cameras before shipping and now they are going to kill themselves, or buy a Canon, Nikon, etc...

It seems that because you recently stumbled into this place of course you absolutely have zero clue about the expectations and hopes of many of us that have been here from the original announcement of the original Scarlet. Announcements and new renders is all there is. Of course it takes a very long time to create an advance piece of technology. Then the question is: Why don't wait until there is a real product to announce it to the world. Not many people have $28K to invest on a camera body, let alone the many thousands more to make it work. Especially the world economy is right now and will be for a very long time. So why not wait until there was a real Scarlet to give the mortals some hope. Will see what news the November announcement brings.

 

[Felix K.]

Well, I'm still working with my XL-2 Have a lot of greenscreen to shoot in 2 weeks. Uncomplicated stuff but still keying in SD sucks a little...

 

[Eddy Robinson]

I think Nov 30th should clarify a lot.

Indeed; at the same time it's true that last week, everyone was saying the same thing about October 30th.

I don't think there was any intention to snub or mislead potential Scarlet buyers, and for that matter last Friday's announcement did contain some interesting information (as well as a sincere explanation from Jim about why deadline dates are troublesome).

Without being critical, what basically happened was that last December RED set out their vision for a new generation of cameras - a big, ambitious proposal for whole line from an affordable fixed-lens '3k for $3k' Scarlet at the bottom end to a pants-wetting 29 megapixel 617 camera at the other. (I'm talking about the page at http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/ if anyone is confused).

I appreciate that the dates and prices in there were 'subject to change...count on it'. And most people appreciate what a difficult challenge it is and so forth. But I can appreciate how some people are feeling tired with another 'announcement about an announcement'; and when it's said that new features are being added to enable a future Scarlet to compete with future VDSLRs (don't argue with me, take it up with Jim since that's what he said), it's not surprising that some people respond with 'nice, but I would have been happy with the original feature set rather than waiting longer for even more stuff'.

Understandably, given the lower price point and less commercial customer base for Scarlet, RED doesn't want to go through the 'extended beta' approach of the R1. Equally, though, talk of new and even better features are no substitute for an actual release; I hope the pendulum doesn't swing too far the other way, towards endless design iteration at the expense of availability. I don't think it'll do the bottom line any favors; people can fight over the different budget brackets, but basically RED wouldn't be proposing a camera in the $3-10k range if they didn't anticipate a market and profit there.

And it's get harder and harder for people to wait: yes, Scarlet will be far better than xxxx camera and far cheaper than yyy camera, you get what you pay for and so on, but at some point people want to shoot, and accept the compromise in image quality for the sake of being able to actually get something in the can. These aren't necessarily lost sales, for RED, but they are deferred.

A lot of people have taken the decision to postpone a camera purchase because of what Scarlet offers. Might be the 3k, might be the RAW, might be the lens, might be the frame rates...those things are worth waiting a while for if one can do so, because they potentially pay of big in terms of ability to realize your filmic vision. As a simple example, with 3k you could save a lot of money by shooting with smaller and cheaper stabilization, and use the margin of error in a 3k frame to stabilize some of the camerawork in post for an eventual 1080 or 2k output, vs >$1000 in steadicam rig rental. OK, this is kind of like counting chickens before your eggs hatch, but then pre-production in general is about trying to maximize your bang for the buck before shooting. Part of why Scarlet has been perceived as such good value is due to an awareness of how much it would cost to do those things with other equipment, and how desirable it would be for your film to include those kind of shots. We all want to make something that looks like a million dollars, and the clever part of producing directing is to achieve that level of quality without actually spending that amount. If you actually have a million dollars and make something that looks like a million dollars, then you're not really trying, are you? It would take a special kind of incompetence to make it look cheaper than you shot it for!

So, say you have $7500 to spend on gear now, plus the cost of your no-budget feature (food, gas, taser batteries for recalcitrant actors...). Unless the time horizon is pretty short (eg Jan/Feb 2010), many will commit part of that on another camera. They might even save the rest in anticipation of Scarlet, but as soon as they start actual work on their no-budget epic, the movie they are making will dominate their consciousness and decision-making, not the camera. If they're happy with (competitor's camera), and it turns out to be adequate - not perfect, but adequate - then the next several months to a year of their life will be oriented around shooting, posting and (hopefully) some kind of marketing. If Scarlet drops in, say, July August 2010 those people will say 'OK, awesome', but they probably won't halt everything else to flog their existing cameras and upgrade, they'll do it on the next project - ie, when they need a camera again.

In short, gear lust only exists during the planning stage. The minute someone goes from planning to production, they're out of the market for the length of time their film takes. This is not a big issue with a working DP, where that timeframe may only be a month or two. But the market for Scarlet includes a lot of directors, more than DPs; Scarlet isn't likely to be nearly as profitable as a rental item compared to Epic etc., and no-budget directors are the kind of people who want to minimize expendable costs on renting a camera (sure, there are many times when you should just rent and shoot, but if you making the film over 3 months of weekends then rental becomes very bad value compared to having your own camera).

So to wrap up, Scarlet is still as revolutionary an idea as it was when first announced - an idea worth waiting and sacrificing for. But the excitement is getting very close to its expiry date, because ultimately the camera is the means to an end, and the length of the project/camera replacement cycle is IMHO longer for Scarlet buyers than it is for Epic buyers.

Edit: please bear the sweeping generalizations in mind as what they are. Of course, some DPs will get a S35 Scarlet and make good rental money, just like some directors will buy an Epic-X. Most of my comments are meant to reference the 2/3" models; as there are more people who can, or aspire, affording these models, they also constitute a bigger pool of evangelists and future upgraders than the pros who will go straight to Epic. So even though they are less profitable customers individually, collectively they have a lot to offer RED's balance sheet.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

It seems that because you recently stumbled into this place of course you absolutely have zero clue about the expectations and hopes of many of us that have been here from the original announcement of the original Scarlet. Announcements and new renders is all there is. Of course it takes a very long time to create an advance piece of technology. Then the question is: Why don't wait until there is a real product to announce it to the world. Not many people have $28K to invest on a camera body, let alone the many thousands more to make it work. Especially the world economy is right now and will be for a very long time. So why not wait until there was a real Scarlet to give the mortals some hope. Will see what news the November announcement brings.

John, you said you been around here for a while, so I'm surprised you don't quite get how this has worked...from the beginning. This is a company that is evolving, one that has had close interactions with its customers so they can try and improve. Will they be a well-oiled machine someday that can announce the next roll out of a product with 100% accuracy? Maybe. But in a way, I'll only hope that's the case if they are still pushing the limits of technology and not going for status quo. Otherwise, I'd rather RED sticks to the way they are doing things. Tinkering in the garage until they have something they think will blow people's minds. Having said that, I think they have started to move towards a bit more of a conservative approach. So, perhaps it will be a happy medium.

I feel for you Scarlet Nation, I really do. I'm anxious to use one myself at some point. I think the reality is, wait for some answers on the 30th and if they're not what you want to hear, please move on. A lot of noise on the forum, some of it valid, some of it coming from folks who don't seem to have a positive thing to say. The reality is, making all kinds of noise probably won't do much. I'm sure RED wants Scarlet out in the market as much as you do. All you can do is follow the development and hope it happens sooner than expected. Rather than throwing tomatoes, it might make more sense to actually pay very close attention to the details being released and offer constructive feedback. Far more productive in my opinion.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

OK, 28 days was shot on Canon XL's and transferred to film. as our most movies that get a theatrical release...but. if thats your focus, you missed my point.

Did any normal viewer care about what it was shot on? NO! Again, my post was in response to this repetitive and disturbing rant from Scarlet infected zombies.

"Dear RED, ive told investors for a year that a Scarlet would make me equivalent to Peter Jackson... this delay has shattered my business plan... you guys suck for ruining my life. im going to now buy a Canon. Nikon, etc"

That has to be the most pathetic thing I have ever read. That was my CONTEXT.

 

[John Nguyen]

"Dear RED, ive told investors for a year that a Scarlet would make me equivalent to Peter Jackson... this delay has shattered my business plan... you guys suck for ruining my life. im going to now buy a Canon. Nikon, etc"

That has to be the most pathetic thing I have ever read. That was my CONTEXT.

Where did you read this quote?


And thanx, Eddy. I thought that summed up most of what a lot of us awaiting the Scarlet are about.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Where did you read this quote?


And thanx, Eddy. I thought that summed up most of what a lot of us awaiting the Scarlet are about.

PARAPHRASE... read through the October 30 announcements . has to be one like that almost every 2 pages. uke:

 

[Peter Osinski]

Excellent post and I totally agree.

But why limit this just to people interested in Scarlet? Granted the vocal minority of Scarlet whiners have been the loudest, most disrespectful and most obnoxious of all, but I would also say the exact same applies to all of the tacky posts about how "Billy Bob #26,874 is getting his Epic trade-in bargain a few weeks before I get mine and this will just ruin my life and its not fair and I'm holding my breath until RED changes their mind." (hehehe, ok i exaggerate a bit...)

hey alex....wow...just watched your underwater stuff...beautiful images on a consumer camcorder...great stuff