Workflow Advice for First-Timer?

[Seth Fisher]

Hello all,

I've just shot my first film with the RED One and am trying to plan out my post-production workflow. I think the FCP workflow is pretty clear from what I can deduce from the forums, but I'm not sure how/when to integrate REDCine and/or REDAlert into the workflow. Do I adjust my RAW stuff (white balance, exposure) prior to cutting the thing in FCP or can I do that after I export a timline. Do the reference quicktime files that I cut with point to the RAW stuff during CC?

Also, how does FCP Color compare to RED software like Alert and Cine?

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[Uli Plank]

Instead of explaning you three different workflows, could you please tell us the medium the footage is intended for, what's the shooting ratio and which hardware you use?

 

[Seth Fisher]

Thanks for your response. It is a short film that is intended to be shown at festivals.

I shot a 3:1 ratio in 4k and framed for 2.40 aspect. My hardware is modest, an dual core iMac with 4gb of RAM and 128 Vram. I've been able to run hq proxies through FCP just fine, thus far. I'm just not sure when I'm supposed to tweak my RAW file, before or after cutting.

Thanks.

 

[joe hedge]

Also, how does FCP Color compare to RED software like Alert and Cine?

Neither RedAlert or RedCine are intended for cc of your final output

FCP Color will work great but not on an iMac, which will only show you 8 bit RGB color

CC for output to HD master is done on rec709-compliant, 10 bit monitoring systems

If you are cutting on an iMac you are much better off transcoding everything to ProRes first, then for final output you can either cc the ProRes files and output those or offline-online back to the R3D's

 

[Seth Fisher]

That seems to be the best plan (ProRes Edit in FCP followed by CinemaTools and Color). Will ccing in Color still reference the R3D file? Will I still be able to take advantage of the RAW flexibility?

Still not sure where RedCine/RED Alert fit in...

 

[James Press]

Hi Seth,

1. Get your RAW r3d footage (the files that came off the CF cards/RAID drives and open them in RedAlert (you won't need to use RedCine, IMO). In RedAlert, set the colour temperature, exposure, gamma curve etc. This is analogous to a 'one light' or primary colour correction. You are effectively setting a general overall look to your footage. Get it close to what you want it to eventually look like--not exact, but close/ ball park. In doing that you automatically create an RSX file, which is the 'look' you've given the footage.

2. Open RedRushes. (RedRushes is the Red app which transcodes the r3ds into a codec of your selection--in this case ProRes of some form. At this point you have a choice: transcode to a finishing size ProRes format like 1080 ProResHQ (meaning you'll edit and colour correct this footage and never go back to the RAW r3ds --lots of guys are doing this if you don't need the best possible source colour material--proresHQ is still plenty good for most non-feature projects); OR elect to do an offline-onlime workflow where you will just make a small prores footage (like NTSC) to ease the editing process (especially if you're using a modest computer like your iMac), but you'll online it back to the r3ds later for colour correction and final output to a bigger resolution like 1080. This workflow would use an app like ClipFinder to reconnect your smaller offline edited footage to the original r3ds. Given the nature of your question and your apparent experience I would suggest the first workflow, which is simpler, where you move to prores and stay there. The only problem might be the limitation of your iMac in dealing with 1080p material...)

Phew, so, back to RedRushes. Use it to transcode your red footage to your desired prores output. Bear in mind that this takes time, LOTS of time. Depending on your settings (the quality of the debayer) it will be slow or very slow--don't expect anything faster than 6:1, and it can be as slow as 20:1 (depending on your machine and the debayer).

3. Once you have transcoded you footage you can now edit away in FCP, including using the 3 way CC in FCP. Alternatively you can send the edited cut to Color and CC in there, making use of its more powerful tools. Job done.

Seth there are LOTS of threads discussing the pros and cons of these (and other) workflows so you should do a bit of searching if you haven't already.

Good luck with it all!

James

 

[Seth Fisher]

Thanks James. This is very helpful guidance. I do have one question, if I can edit with small NTSC files and subsequently reconnect them to R3D's in Color (I assume I would have the same control of things like exposure, etc. as in RED Alert?), can't I simply import the H quality reference quicktimes that the RED already generated and cut with them?

 

[Uli Plank]

Unfortunately the proxy workflow is not stable. The infamous looping bug can be cured with Colorfixer (or in Clipfinder), but we had rendering issues in Color recently too.

I suppose that's why Apple is not mentioning that workflow in the whitepaper.

 

[James Press]

What Uli is saying Seth is that yes, technically you can work with the proxies, but lots of us have had problems doing so. Some people still use the proxies and get wonderful results, but you need to know what you are doing. Just one issue you'll face is needing to have all of your source r3d media online, which potentially could mean terabytes of fast raid5 storage. There are other issues, like the dreaded gamma shift. If you know how to address all these types of issues then the proxies can certainly work, but...

To be honest, I think you'll be surprised at how beautiful you can get prores looking, and doing the transcode once will save you a lot of potential headaches, given you seem fairly new to red (no offence at all intended). You should do a small test and transcode a minute or two of footage, using RedAlert to get the look you're after, then take it into FCP and/or Color and push it around, see how far you can grade it until it starts to break up.

I've gone down both routes and for me I much prefer and am completely satisfied with the 'easier' single transcode workflow. And I still use ProResHQ, not even 4444...

If you want to relink to the r3ds for grading this post is pretty helpful, and hot off the press: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=35308

Please have a quick search on the forum using terms like 'workflow' 'proxies' 'transcode' so you can get a better feel for your options. The fun is about to begin!

Cheers,

James

 

[Seth Fisher]

Thanks, James. Your advice is sound and it looks like I'm going to go that route. One more question, some of my RDC's contain 3-4 RD3 files. How do I manage those files when processing in RED Alert?

 

[joe hedge]

Thanks, James. Your advice is sound and it looks like I'm going to go that route. One more question, some of my RDC's contain 3-4 RD3 files. How do I manage those files when processing in RED Alert?

You don't. The Fat32 format the RedDrives and cards use have 2 gig file limits (you'll notice none of those R3D's are bigger than 2 gigs). So any shot longer than about 1:15 minutes gets spanned across multiple files. RedAlert is fine with them.

 

[Luca Immesi]

I'm a huge fan of Color but if you want to use the new color science it's better to transcode R3D files with clipfinder/redrushes/redalert to prores 4 or HQ (with an imac is better HQ) and then import into Color.
Redalert and redcine have a far superior debayering capability than Color and Color still uses the old color science.

 

[James Press]

Hi Seth,

As Joe said, you don't have to worry about it. RedAlert/RedRushes knows that the r3ds are limited to 2GB files, so you just import the first r3d (if you have multiple r3ds, and as Joe says, any shot longer than 1:15min will--I shoot typically 60+min takes so my 'shot' contains about 60 individual r3ds) and then red app will treat those files as one continuous file.

I'm a huge fan of Color but if you want to use the new color science it's better to transcode R3D files with clipfinder/redrushes/redalert to prores 4 or HQ (with an imac is better HQ) and then import into Color.
Redalert and redcine have a far superior debayering capability than Color and Color still uses the old color science

Luca--just for clarity, are you recommending Seth transcode to proresHQ using redalert as opposed to using the proxies? I'm just not quite sure I understand what you're saying...cheers

 

[Luca Immesi]

Hi Seth,

As Joe said, you don't have to worry about it. RedAlert/RedRushes knows that the r3ds are limited to 2GB files, so you just import the first r3d (if you have multiple r3ds, and as Joe says, any shot longer than 1:15min will--I shoot typically 60+min takes so my 'shot' contains about 60 individual r3ds) and then red app will treat those files as one continuous file.


Luca--just for clarity, are you recommending Seth transcode to proresHQ using redalert as opposed to using the proxies? I'm just not quite sure I understand what you're saying...cheers

Yes also because Color uses with R3D the old color science.

 

[Uli Plank]

I wouldn't recommend proxies for editing in FCP at all. We had problems rendering in Color 1.5 even after doing the Colorfixer round.

 

[James Press]

Good one--that makes sense.

Seth, I think you've got your answer :smiley: Best of luck with it! Make sure you post a link to your finished film.

 

[jimhare]

I have obtained the best results transcoding to ProRes in Red Alert, editing in FCP, and then doing a final grade of the ProRes in Color, mostly for secondaries and subtle effects. Uncompressed would be better but who has the space?!!!

I have tried using Clipfinder to relink to R3D and go into Color, but as Luca rightly points out, the R3Ds don't look as good in Color as they do in Red Alert.

The best investment I've made is in a RED Rocket™, which has turned the whole process on its head and made creating very high quality transodes a breeze.

Everyone should have one, it's well worth the expense.

 

[Seth Fisher]

Thanks for all the input, everyone. I've transocoded the footage for my first scene thrugh RED Alert/RED Rushes and I'm cutting my first scene right now. I think I'll do a trial run of it all the way through color before repeating the workflow with the rest of my footage.

I'll be sure to post something when it's ready!

seth