IBC '09? There's a new Canon camera to be announced soon (Canon source)

[Craig Meadows]

Canon is a large manufacturer of hundreds of consumer and professional products for just as many markets. RED is a small manufacturer of dedicated gear for a particular niche market. Where RED can turn on a dime and change with the wind Canon is a huge corporation where it appears change happens slowly. It took quite a while for the 5D manual update release. RED is releasing firmware updates regularly. Canon does not freely enter dialogue with it's customer base. RED has this forum where you can discuss RED products directly with the developers. As far as I know you cannot personally engage the president/CEO or chief engineers of Canon. Jim, Graeme, Stuart and the others are always here, I really don't think Jannard sleeps. Canon has to develop products for a particularly large base to turn a profit. RED has chosen, even with the Scarlet, to develop for a much smaller niche. I think this really is a apples vs. oranges argument. The very fact that Canon is changing in an attempt to compete with RED speaks very well of what RED has done in just a few short years. For quite a while I thought my RED ONE was the last camera I would ever have to buy. After 25 years in this business you think I would have learned technology is always changing. If Canon ships a large sensor cinema camera I am sure it will be very nice but so will all the future cameras from RED and other manufacturers. When I can afford it I prefer to buy gear from a smaller, reputable company that I can have a more personal experience and relationship with.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Lol, more coverage of this thread and the one at CRumors...

http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/09/07/canon-trash-talking-red/

See what you started Emanuel

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I don't think I have seen anyone post anything along the lines of "if Canon release something interesting, I might take a look... competition is always healthy".

Is it really so fanboyish here? It's a shame, as not all of us here are 100% committed to planet Red and could have some healthy debate about what could be around the corner.

1 other thing.... the whole concept of a modular camera is so overblown. If Canon could pump out a system for $7k that is ready to roll and has all the connections ready for HDMI Monitor, extra power etc, then it is semi modular anyway.... and what difference would it make to upgrade the whole Canon system in 2 years for $7k, or a new RED brain in 2 years for $7k.

There are some benefits to the fully modular system, sure.... if an audio module goes down, you can quickly replace it.... but it is not the be all and end all as some suggest.

Please, allow me Jay: If Canon released something interesting, I'll look at it. I am looking at the 7D right now...

...however, when I look at the 5D vs. 7D, and compare it to the Red One at release vs. Red One two years later... Puf! goes that temptation.

I agree that it would be awesome if Canon put a $7k system with uncompressed HDMI and REAL audio. But I haven't seen one.

But if they did I would sell my current personal gear. However, I will still wait and see what Red has in store for us, because that $7k Canon camera wouldn't get better with age. It will only depreciate in value at a faster rate than a Red camera would!

A $7k Red counterpart will also depreciate in value as new brains come out, competition releases worthy products, but that depreciation would also be modular. The Pro Audio module should not depreciate at the same rate if it is everything I hope it will be. Audio is further along than video, you don't see Sound Devices releasing "replacements" for their field recorders every year, you only see them releasing models with more channels or features. Modular also allows you to upgrade the part you need, when you feel it is worth the investment for your particular needs. That gives you more control over your investment, your work tools.

And, since Red will likely continue to give us firmware updates as their color science gets even better, they figure out a few quirks in their menu, add features worth their developing time, what have you... then Red Brains+Sensors will depreciate at a slower rate!

What is so wrong about liking that? Will it keep me alive for 200 years? Make my life worry free? No... but it is better than the "big-corporation" alternative.

Jim is some sort of 21st century a crazy nut job pirate with balls the size of the Moon. He jumped into that shark infested pool, again. I love him for that.

Even if my money helped him top the Forbes chart some day. Because I will be better off than with what Canon, Panasonic and Sony had in their product development projections, for the same amount of money. What's so hard to understand about that?

And, IF any of the "big ones" change to be more like Red and I find myself with all of their products and none from Red, I will still be a Red fanboy... because Red is for ever going to have been responsible for speeding things up in a VERY significant way, period.

Of course there were many others trying to do the same, but none with the power of large numbers that Jim brought into the game. So, thank you Jim for being so successful at Oakley, and for using your arsenal of tricks in this field. You could have gone to Fiji with your beautiful wife and built yourself a processing lab staffed with top shelf talent, just to have them develop and scan all your 645 and 70mm film just minutes after you shot it.

I don't know how to summarize my point here, but I guess I am all about shaking things up, progress... go ahead and hate me for it if you want to. Hope I never change... wait, I may only be in my thirties but I can already tell that I never will. :smile5: Red sort of embodies that. So call me what you will, but calling me a Red fanboy is not going to upset me. :beer:

I hope Canon and the others put their resources to better use than they have, but don't forget to thank Jim if they do. I also hope Red is successful, cause they already earned it in my book. Moreover, I hope Red never changes.

 

[Larry Gebhardt]

Very nice, Roberto

Larry

 

[Emanuel A.]

See what you started Emanuel

Not for a second round ;-)

That person (I can't write guy 'cause I know he wouldn't like to see it won't want to talk with me anymore for the next 15 years... LOL

Fortunately, I didn't unveil his name -- imagine if I had... No more forwards outside reduser, please? :001_smile:

 

[Tom Lowe]

Not for a second round ;-)

That person (I can't write guy 'cause I know he wouldn't like to see it won't want to talk with me anymore for the next 15 years... LOL

Fortunately, I didn't unveil his name -- imagine if I had... No more forwards outside reduser, please? :001_smile:

LMAO. :laugh:

Okay, we'll keep it "in house" from now on. :grouphug:

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Not for a second round ;-)

That person (I can't write guy 'cause I know he wouldn't like to see it won't want to talk with me anymore for the next 15 years... LOL

Fortunately, I didn't unveil his name -- imagine if I had... No more forwards outside reduser, please? :001_smile:

Emanuel, you do know I had absolutely nothing to do with that right?! we are friends and fellow REDUSERS, I wouldn't do that to you, at list not yet no really, I would never do that to no one, and this is why Few Corporate companies have and still trust me with some serious stuff.


BTW, really I just reminded my self true a read about something to really put Canon to quite down a bit on this nonsense of Canon vs, RED, as there is truly no vs here,
or are we forgetting this?: http://www.red.com/shot_on_red/

 

[Pawel Achtel]

PS: This is an odd statement from a lens hound like you Pawel. Master Primes on a sub $2k Canon?:biggrinjester:

hehehe, Canon does not make a $40k DSLR. And, if they did, I don't think I'd give it the special treatment that I graced the 50D with :smash:

But, I see your point :biggrinjester:

 

[Emanuel A.]

Emanuel, you do know I had absolutely nothing to do with that right?! we are friends and fellow REDUSERS, I wouldn't do that to you, at list not yet no really, I would never do that to no one, and this is why Few Corporate companies have and still trust me with some serious stuff.

Sure Ketch. I was only responding to Tom succeeding a previous communication through the PM box

 

[Ethan Cooper]

... No more forwards outside reduser, please? :001_smile:

Well, you did put that info in the internet, what did you expect?

I'm sorry to say that your super secret, shall remain nameless buddy will never speak to you again.

 

[David Rasberry]

hehehe, Canon does not make a $40k DSLR. And, if they did, I don't think I'd give it the special treatment that I graced the 50D with :smash:

But, I see your point :biggrinjester:

All in good fun. :yesnod:

 

[Emanuel A.]

Well, you did put that info in the internet, what did you expect?

I'm sorry to say that your super secret, shall remain nameless buddy will never speak to you again.

As same as ever. It hasn't been the first time that me or others have posted @ reduser some impressions coming from real life. This time the impact has overwhelmed any pattern from the past, just it. Again, I was just kidding with Tom following a few PMs traded minutes before.

Don't worry, no one WON'T want to talk with me onwards. I am a good customer, used to pay my bills in time. ;-)

 

[Shane Nassiri]

There were some murmurings of a Canon video camera with a 2/3" chip and CMOS sensor in the XL form factor size slated for the fall.

If that were to come to fruition and was close to the XLH1 price ($7-$8K), I could see it being a reasonable competitor to the Scarlet 2/3", which I mean in terms of enticing users to adopt it vs. the Scarlet, not in terms of spec sheets, since it is unknown what recording format it would offer. Even at $7K, it would offer a more complete out of the box solution than the fixed lens Scarlet (presumably, based on what is known so far).

That said, bring it on Canon! I like the underground nature of RED. I don't need to walk into Best Buy to make such a purchase (why would you?)

 

[Tom Lowe]

Unless it can shoot 120fps RAW, then any 2/3" HD camera from Canon will fall on its face, IMO. Scarlet will own it up and down the block.

 

[Milan Spasic]

Interesting thread...

I'm about to purchase a R1 with an Epic-X upgrade in mind and although I know that Canon motion camera with (most likely) 7D-like guts is imminent, I feel confident that I'm making the right choice. Not that it will be a competition for Epic but anyways .....

All I can say that every single piece of software Canon ever released, regardless of the product was virtually unusable. Canon never made an attempt to improve in this department. I cannot imagine a Canon plug-in for FCP or any such piece of software for Mac.

On the same note, every motion camera Canon ever released was a disaster. They never made sense ergonomically or brain wise. Anybody remember their first foray into prosumer video with a Hi-8 camera? XL-1&2? Instantly obsolete.

Not bashing Canon, they have cornered the stills market, hats off for that, but unless they bring in Steve Jobs, I don't expect miracles from their motion camera department.

 

[Vico Martin]

Interesting thread...

I'm about to purchase a R1 with an Epic-X upgrade in mind and although I know that Canon motion camera with (most likely) 7D guts is imminent, I feel confident that I'm making the right choice.

All I can say that every single piece of software Canon ever released, regardless of the product was virtually unusable. Canon never made an attempt to improve in this department. I cannot imagine a Canon plug-in for FCP or any such piece of software for Mac.

this is the point!

Everithing is software.

Canon needs a Japan version of Graeme to develop something near Red products.

 

[Dave Blackham]

this is the point!

Everithing is software.

Canon needs a Japan version of Graeme to develop something near Red products.

Agreed, but I still think Canon make good stills cameras. I don't much like their software though.

I remember when Mr Taguchi joined Panasonic who up till then made passable cameras but with his guidance their camera's really became very good. I had the privilege to meet him once when he was visiting the UK and being very inspired by his view for weeks afterwards. What Im trying to say is it seems to me Canon need to have some one really good on the software side that can sort out the camera recording format and the plug in software to make it fly or Im not sure it will move forward very fast. Till then the Red team rule.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Unless it can shoot 120fps RAW, then any 2/3" HD camera from Canon will fall on its face, IMO. Scarlet will own it up and down the block.

I guess it will all come down to the quality and NLE support of the codec. Plus - very important factor will be final Scarlet design and controls, it's practicality for fast tempo and multi-purpose friendliness. Canons current design is more broadcast friendly - a world many times larger than Cinema world.

Not all people need 120 fps 12 bit RAW for EFP/ENG. A TV house, or smaller TV oriented production houses won't care much for 120 fps or 12 bit RAW, but they will care about practicality, multi-purpose, compactness, standard controls, speed of use, part maintenance, etc...

If Canon pulled a serious sensor AND a serious codec and shown to be more practical for certain usages, I'd be very interested for both Canon 2/3" AND Scarlet. I don't see this as "one or the other" situation in that case.

I'd prefer purchasing only one type of 2/3" cameras, though.

 

[Stuart English]

Canon for broadcast

Canon for broadcast

Canons current design is more broadcast friendly - a world many times larger than Cinema world.

You think so - based on which attributes?

 

[Tom Lowe]

I'd prefer purchasing only one type of 2/3" cameras, though.

Well that's my point. If you're going to go for a 2/3" camera, why not go with Scarlet? You get RAW, you get 120 - 150fps, etc. There is no way Canon is going to top those specs on a 2/3" camera, IMO. The RAW and high FPS are pure gold, at least for me.