IBC '09? There's a new Canon camera to be announced soon (Canon source)

[Felix K.]

OPSEC FTMFW!

That took me a minute to decypher...

Jim, please un-clam!! We'll tell nobody! Promise! :bigear:

 

[Michael Hastings]

Ha. Two years ago we were a scam and now "Canon is not afraid of us." Sounds like we have come a long way in a short period of time.

I'm very happy that RED has in any small way helped Canon to "see the light". We welcome anything they bring to the market that is good for the industry. Now... get rid of H.264.

We have a stable of unannounced features. Glad we started to clam up recently.

Jim

Jim:

It seems like you have a pretty good take/attitude on Canon. I get a little annoyed/ashamed/amused at all the Canon bashing by some of the REDUSERs - as if RED can't be good unless Canon (or Sony, Panasonic, Arri, Panavision, etc.) are bad.

I never thought RED was a scam - I knew it made sense the minute I saw it at NAB 2006 and if TED hadn't stopped writing orders to go do a presentation I probably would have been SN less than 50 rather than SN206. (Ironically, I was on my way to the Panasonic booth to get some info on putting the Firestore in our HVX200 U/W housing and spent the next hour and a half listening and talking to Jarred when he was working at the Panny booth - so I didn't get back to place my RED order until the next day.)

Heinlein used to say that in general "when it's time to railroad, people railroad" - meaning when the various technologies converge SOMEONE (and probably more than one) is going to take the next step. Video recording on digital still cameras was around before RED was announced. 320x240 then 640x480 and soon after RED became available they came out with 720p and now 1080p. Certainly, Canon has noticed RED but I think the drivers so far have been capability plus the recent big increases in flash memory speed and capacity at very low prices.

I think RED's major influence will be on how quickly they bring out a 4k capable motion oriented camera and at what price point.

I love the RED, think that REDCODE raw was RED's most brilliant insight, and will upgrade to epic-x the day I get my notice. But I think it's okay for REDUSERs to recognize that a $1600 18MP DSLR is pretty sweet. Add the fact that it can shoot video that just a few years ago would have been considered outstanding and still is decent for a lot of situations (with S35 DOF and great lenses to boot) - well, then it's okay to admit that that is pretty sweet too and might be an okay tool to add to one's bag of tricks.

I am eagerly looking forward to my epic-x and whatever tricks you have up your sleeve

 

[Tom Lowe]

I think RED's major influence will be on how quickly they bring out a 4k capable motion oriented camera and at what price point.

Even if they come out with a 4K RAW camera (which they will), they will have been shooting at a moving target that already passed by. If your end product is 1080p or 2K, a 4K Bayer-pattern camera is fine. If your end goal is a clean 4K (for the thousands of movie theaters now purchasing 4K projectors, and for the 4K LCDs coming to Best Buy and Dell.com much sooner than most people think), you will need Jim's 5K or especially Jim's 6K Monstro cameras. When shooting a moving target, you have to "lead" it. Maybe Canon will surprise everyone with a 6K RAW camera, but I doubt it. If they were smart, they would. But rarely have they been smart on cinema cameras. Jim seems to be several chess moves ahead of them, even with all their vast resources. This is probably because Jim is a shooter himself, and has a clear vision on the future.

 

[Jannard]

If one of the camera companies had released a high resolution, high frame rate, rapid reset sensor that output RAW... without pixel shifting, line skipping (or other such nonsense), I would be in Fiji right now. Maybe we have helped to light a fire and guide the industry to a place it desperately wanted to go? Who knows. Glad they didn't because we sure are having fun.

Jim

 

[Michael Hastings]

If they were smart, they would. But rarely have they been smart on cinema cameras. Jim seems to be several chess moves ahead of them, even with all their vast resources. This is probably because Jim is a shooter himself, and has a clear vision on the future.

I don't disagree that Jim is PROBABLY a few chess moves ahead because, like Steve Jobs, Jim seems to have an intuitive sense of how to combine what can be done with what we are going to want before we know it ourselves. I just don't think we have the data to say "rarely have they been smart on cinema cameras" because (as I've said elsewhere) they were never serious about the high end of the market before due to conflict with their broadcast lens business.

And even though Canon doesn't have an employee-owned Canonuser forum, they do have HUNDREDs of very serious professional shooters that are customers that give them constant/relevant feedback. Again, I am a proud RED owner and happy with my Canon products as well. So far, I find them complementary. Without more track record from RED AND without access to Canon's innermost engineering labs I think any assessment of where they are on the chess board is just a WAG.

More than anything, I think the next year or two will be very interesting.

EDit addition:

If one of the camera companies had released a high resolution, high frame rate, rapid reset sensor that output RAW... without pixel shifting, line skipping (or other such nonsense), I would be in Fiji right now. Maybe we have helped to light a fire and guide the industry to a place it desperately wanted to go? Who knows. Glad they didn't because we sure are having fun.

Jim

And I'm glad they didn't too because I really like what you have done and announced so far.

 

[Felix K.]

I think noone will disagree that Canon can make good products; it's just in the below 4000$, 3k -RAW shooting camcorder category that they didn't show much recently.

I think the frustration with Canon, if you want to call it that, is that people feel that they didn't get what would have been possible. I bought a XL-2 2006 for 3700 euros. Compare resources of a global player like Canon to RED (in all due respect).
If the Mysterium sensor wasn't invented by one of Jim's relatives in his hobby workshop as a streak of genious that could not be matched by anyone else in the industry ( which I still think could be the reason, although it might also have to do with that incident in Roswell in the 50s), then it seems to me, the big players are holding back the progress in video technology for economical purposes. And that's just not right!

 

[Michael Hastings]

then it seems to me, the big players are holding back the progress in video technology for economical purposes. And that's just not right!

Of course they had access to the technology - it just didn't fit their marketing mix at the time.

When Nikon (who doesn't have a broadcast lens division) came out with the D90 it opened the door for the 5DMKII (because Canon could just say to Sony/Pan that "hey we have to do this now") and they quickly hashed together video on the 5dMkII. With its overwhelming success they could see the handwriting (and $ signs) on the wall and probably won't ever again consider whether it offends Sony/Pan - so they came out with the 7D.

They could certainly do something along the lines of RED/Epic i.e. more appropriate sensor readout and compressed raw. But they haven't figured out exactly the form factor(s) and the marketing mix (target prices, how it fits in with the other products, etc.) AND they are making money hand over fist with the 5D/7D products so why rush? They might as well take their time and wait a year/year and a half. Make a lot of money in the meantime - and let the raw postproduction world settle in a little better.

The good news is that this gives RED time to come out with Epic and maybe have a year if it comes out soon. And hopefully time to flesh out the RED product line and get firmly established for the long haul.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Michael, it is not going to take Canon long to get their new rumored digital cinema camera out. I can guarantee you that they are working at a fevered pitch to get it done. They will probably announce something soon, and once they do, it won't take long for it to actually come out.

 

[Peter Mosiman]

It will still fall short. Canon has no idea what's in store for them when Jannard opens up RED's secret doings...and neither do I but I cannot wait.

 

[Vladimir Eugene]

Gunning for the top

Gunning for the top

I find it very amusing.

I remember when RED was gunning for the top. Putting out a 20K camera that was going to compete with 100K, 200K cameras without being tethered.

Their RPP that were gunning at the MP's costing one 5th.

The Scarlet which may or may not be gunning for the likes of F900, F23 etc.

To see Canon gunning for Scarlet is quit a compliment.

Always aim for the top.

well done

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Like Michael feel that there is no need to show an attitude against any other company. I've been surprised a few times that even hobbyist still photographers seem to be aware of RED. And it was not that long time ago, when some people said that it is impossible that Red One did not have a sensor from one of these major players. Still, not that many understand how good Red One is also in still photography. All this is quite something, and it's no surprise that major players have recognized RED and changed their plans.

Competition will benefit camera owners and it's only a question of time when most users will start to recognize what dynamics means and to see the difference between 4:2:0 and 4:4:4.

Another issue is this habit of some vendors to come up with a new model which is marginally better than the previous one. This cash flow may turn out to be in the end of its life.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Yes, I think their first problem is not only the Scarlet 2/3" vs. their broadcast lenses line. But above all the Scarlet FF35 vs. their natural core business. Where they see RED as a real threat.

 

[DaveT]

Canon will slip in a series of compromises (driven by marketing not tech.) They always do.

 

[DaveT]

The thing about Red is, you can tell that their pushing the engine as hard as they can, and are passing that onto the customer. You gotta respect that.
Canon are just ticking over, leaving the customer dangling on a drip feed.
That's cool if you enjoy being a corp bitch.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

7D will be perfect for chopping and fitting MPs to.

I'm ready to chop'n'roll :smiley:

 

[Tom Lowe]

Pawel, so when are you coming up to California for that MP vs RPP test?

Jim?

Maybe we can do some 7D chopping if you bring the 14mm MP. It looks like the 7D will be able to shoot ISO 3200 timelapse at night. Think of the possibilities!

 

[Pawel Achtel]

If one of the camera companies had released a high resolution, high frame rate, rapid reset sensor that output RAW... without pixel shifting, line skipping (or other such nonsense), I would be in Fiji right now. Maybe we have helped to light a fire and guide the industry to a place it desperately wanted to go? Who knows. Glad they didn't because we sure are having fun.

Jim

hehehe, you can use my tagline, Jim

 

[Vladimir Eugene]

Pawel, so when are you coming up to California for that MP vs RPP test?

Jim?

Maybe we can do some 7D chopping if you bring the 14mm MP. It looks like the 7D will be able to shoot ISO 3200 timelapse at night. Think of the possibilities!

They did that about a month ago at The Camera House, along with other lenses of course. They used my RPP's for their testing.

vlad

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Pawel, so when are you coming up to California for that MP vs RPP test?

Jim?

Maybe we can do some 7D chopping if you bring the 14mm MP. It looks like the 7D will be able to shoot ISO 3200 timelapse at night. Think of the possibilities!

Ready when you are, Tom

 

[Jeff Coatney]

If one of the camera companies had released a high resolution, high frame rate, rapid reset sensor that output RAW... without pixel shifting, line skipping (or other such nonsense), I would be in Fiji right now.

Jim

It would have sucked and You know it. Thanks for not going to Fiji.