Reds impact on still photography

[Matthias Hutter]

Hi all! I've been reading REDUser threads for about two years, yet it took me this long until I finally post my first thread here. After the whole fuzz around DSMC I want to discuss where Red could be used by photographers and some various still topics that came up lately.

Flash/Constant light: I doubt that many Photographers will seriously consider using constant lightning as there is little benefit for using constant light over strobes, but light costs are much higher. Besides, some effects can only be achieved with strobes. I think some Red employee already mentioned that they plan to offer some kind of flash sync within the DSMC System. For run and gun situations a flash metering system would also be useful.

Shutter Speeds/Movie Frame grabs: To get a sharp still image with little subject movement, the rule of thumb is to use double the full frame focal length as fraction of seconds (like 1/200 for a 100mm portrait shot). To freeze rapid motion (Sports etc) it is often necessary to go down to 1/1000 or faster. So frame grabs are in most cases simply too soft for stills. Besides that looking through hundreds of movie frames isn't a very effective stills workflow.

REDCode/Lossless RAW: From my experience, compression and noise reduction artifacts are more easily visible on large prints than on cinema screens. Photographers printing large therefore often prefer to work with the lossless RAW Sensor Data, but I think the higher bit rate DSMC REDCode would work for many people. Additionally, a native Adobe Lightroom and/or Apple Aperture support is as important for stills as the Premiere/FCP support is for video.

High ISO Noise: If RED wants to market its DSMC as sports still camera, a better/competitive high ISO is essential. There has been positive news lately, but the recent highly read noise optimized DSLR Data pipelines from Nikon or Canon (DIGIC) are hard to beat.

Possible uses:
From a cost/use perspective, I think that the EPIC 645 has the most potential as mainly still photography tool, as current Medium Format offerings are comparable priced and red could solve some of the current work flow glitches (like frames per second rather than seconds per frame).
A Scarlet FF35 setup might be used for sports photography if the high ISO noise is low enough. Smaller brains are rather too expensive for mainly still use if you consider the competition (Canon 5D II, Nikon D300 etc.). But of course S35/FF35 users who mainly shoot video can probably save the extra bucks for a additional DSLR body.

Feel free to disagree,:smile:
regards, Matt

 

[Fran Kuhn]

Hi Matthais,

I see some limited potential for grabbing stills from video shoots, not as much the other way around. All the issues you mentioned are real problems--the DSMC's limitations of shooting with strobe; the stills-vs-video shutter speed dilemma, high-iso performance. Of course, sports shooters (or wedding photographers for that matter) are going to demand auto focus from any camera they use. I don't know if something like that is planned for RED products.

Also, if you're shooting motion, you'll probably want to keep the camera moving, so you have to consider the added costs of thing like a Steadicam. Technocrane, dolly, etc., to keep the video portion interesting. Then you'll need a proper video/film crew to make it all work. That gets very expensive. And what about sound? A good two-person crew will be about $1500 for eight-ten hours. Not to mention the rental or purchase cost of the RED cameras is much higher than dedicated stills cameras (some of which--like the Canon 5D Mark I--can also shoot HD video). It gets complicated. I mean, the reality is that an ARRI 435, with a few adjustments to the shutter angle and frame rate, is also a "DSMC" camera--frame grabs have always been possible, it just hasn't been very practical for all the reasons stated here.

There will be some shoots where this video/stills concept could work, but not many, I suspect. If a client is already paying for video, I think they could make use of the stills capability of these DSMC cameras, but IMO the added cost of crew and equipment is a deal-breaker if the purpose of the shoot is primarily stills.

-Fran

 

[Robert Craig]

just my .02 cents. Keep a still camera and a motion camera. Get a Red and a Canon EOS 1d or 5d. Lets not compromise this whole mess. I find combined systems that have both still and motion capture are half hearted, weak or otherwise terrible. I don't believe the two worlds should converge lets keep things simple. :smile:

 

[Andrew Walker]

just my .02 cents. Keep a still camera and a motion camera. Get a Red and a Canon EOS 1d or 5d. Lets not compromise this whole mess. I find combined systems that have both still and motion capture are half hearted, weak or otherwise terrible. I don't believe the two worlds should converge lets keep things simple. :smile:

Well the two worlds are starting to meet already with photographers using the Red One as a DSMC. The ones using it for that seem to be very happy with what they got. I believe it will help things along, not hurt them. Especially with a company like Red behind the wheel.

 

[Jannard]

Maybe you guys missed the fact that Annie Leibovitz, Steven Meisel, Steven Klein and Greg Williams are all shooting covers and spreads on RED ONEs. Don't underestimate. And EPIC/Scarlet are a lot more stills friendly.

http://www.b2pro.com/gallery/shot_on_red/index.php

Jim

 

[Jannard]

just my .02 cents. Keep a still camera and a motion camera. Get a Red and a Canon EOS 1d or 5d. Lets not compromise this whole mess. I find combined systems that have both still and motion capture are half hearted, weak or otherwise terrible. I don't believe the two worlds should converge lets keep things simple. :smile:

Sorry... going to disagree with you 100%.

Jim

 

[Fran Kuhn]

Maybe you guys missed the fact that Annie Leibovitz, Steven Meisel, Steven Klein and Greg Williams are all shooting covers and spreads on RED ONEs. Don't underestimate. And EPIC/Scarlet are a lot more stills friendly.

http://www.b2pro.com/gallery/shot_on_red/index.php

Jim

Hi Jim,

Those shoots are perfect for the concept: Very controlled conditions with the budget and crew to support. It can be done, but the question was ho big of an impact will it have in the much bigger world of stills with real budgets?

And, BTW, how do you take your DSMC into Anaheim stadium and get permission to actually use it during a professional sporting event. Right now, it can't happen. Not to say things won't change, but these are real considerations if you need to make a living with these new tools.

-Fran

 

[Justin O'Neill]

I occasionally see people looking at the stills/motion issue with blinders on. They assume that just because they personally don't like it or it is not ideal for their specific field of work that it is unsuitable for everyone.

You have to remember that there are many different ways of making money in the film/video world and many creative approaches being worked out.

One huge industry that will benefit greatly from the DSMC, is stock stills/motion shooters. We are already shooting motion stock and pulling fantastic ad agency worthy stills from the RED One right now. The DSMC system will be a dream come true. Many stock photographers/videographers I talk to are really excited about the DSMC.

A lot people say the RED One is not suitable for live shooting but just take a look at the extremely long list of live projects Gibby has worked on.

Never bet against creativity and innovation.

 

[Fran Kuhn]

I occasionally see people looking at the stills/motion issue with blinders on. They assume that just because they personally don't like it or it is not ideal for their specific field of work that it is unsuitable for everyone.

Hi Justin,

I don't think anyone is saying it is unsuitable for everyone. It certainly will work for some situations.

Jim mentioned these Rock Star magazine shooters doing covers, which is a perfect example of a place you can get the most out of these tools. They have clients that are desperate for video content for their websites, so it makes perfect sense to combine the shoots. They also have the crew and budget to make it work.

The original poster asked some legit technical questions, hoping to get some specific answers. Maybe he, and the rest of us, want to be part of this revolution. But I haven't heard any specific answers to the questions.

BTW I never bought a Mamiya RZ67 because Annie Leibovitz endorsed it. IMO It was an unreliable camera at best. Always had to have 3 bodies on set because the "A" body would always lock up just as the light was getting good LOL.

-Fran

 

[Steve Sherrick]

If Scarlet turns out to be what I expect it to be, the two are going to converge and your still and motion camera are going to be housed in the same body, each with powerful feature sets that will compete head to head with competitor's products. Now whether the Scarlet still camera matches up against the elite models of Canon, Nikon, etc still remains to be seen, but at the very least I suspect it will create images that are incredible. There will be other factors aside from image quality that will go into photographer's decision making such as ergonomics, accessories, loyalties to other brands, etc. But as I've said before, with Jim being such an avid photographer and owning thousands of still cameras over the years, I've got to think that Scarlet is being designed to be a world class still camera, with some of the RED philosophy and design playing a role. Will it impress everyone? Probably not. But it's hard to make everyone happy. I suspect Jim is making a camera that makes him happy, and probably a lot of others too.

And the motion pictures will also be right up there with the best because RED has learned a tremendous amount with RED One and that will certainly be evident when Scarlet and Epic arrive.

I suppose the best bet is to let this all play out and see what the final design delivers. Hard to make judgements until it's in everyone's hands and some shots have been made. I can't wait.

Fran, I like your work by the way. Good stuff!

 

[Fran Kuhn]

If Scarlet turns out to be what I expect it to be, the two are going to converge and your still and motion camera are going to be housed in the same body, each with powerful feature sets that will compete head to head with competitor's products. Now whether the Scarlet still camera matches up against the elite models of Canon, Nikon, etc still remains to be seen, but at the very least I suspect it will create images that are incredible. There will be other factors aside from image quality that will go into photographer's decision making such as ergonomics, accessories, loyalties to other brands, etc. But as I've said before, with Jim being such an avid photographer and owning thousands of still cameras over the years, I've got to think that Scarlet is being designed to be a world class still camera, with some of the RED philosophy and design playing a role. Will it impress everyone? Probably not. But it's hard to make everyone happy. I suspect Jim is making a camera that makes him happy, and probably a lot of others too.

And the motion pictures will also be right up there with the best because RED has learned a tremendous amount with RED One and that will certainly be evident when Scarlet and Epic arrive.

I suppose the best bet is to let this all play out and see what the final design delivers. Hard to make judgements until it's in everyone's hands and some shots have been made. I can't wait.

Fran, I like your work by the way. Good stuff!

Thanks, Steve.

I have a foot in both worlds (sort of), mostly stills, a little 35mm motion film and some video here and there. I bought a little Sony EX1 to grab video of stills setups for one of my bigger clients last year. That's when I started to see some of the potential benefits of a camera that could shoot both. As well as some of the problems.

There are some things most stills guys wouldn't even think about: once you mention "video" , everything gets more complicated. The location now wants $5000 instead of $1000; the models have to get a bump up in rate. I have to have a 1St AC on the crew who's on an 8-hour day (union rules) while the rest of the stills crew works until the job is done 14-15 hours on many days. Not to mention now the various motion-picture unions start to take an interest and call you at your hotel, wanting to drop by the set the next day.

All this, and the clients are now demanding budget cuts--they are less interested in paying for equipment, and the added cost of motion-picture level hardware (and insurance) is a real concern. I hear it from Production every time.

I agree with you, i think we'll have to wait and see how it all shakes out. I know i've been wrong plenty of times before. Heck, i bought Sirius stock at $2.50 a share.:001_smile:

-Fran

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Thanks, Steve.

I have a foot in both worlds (sort of), mostly stills, a little 35mm motion film and some video here and there. I bought a little Sony EX1 to grab video of stills setups for one of my bigger clients last year. That's when I started to see some of the potential benefits of a camera that could shoot both. As well as some of the problems.

There are some things most stills guys wouldn't even think about: once you mention "video" , everything gets more complicated. The location now wants $5000 instead of $1000; the models have to get a bump up in rate. I have to have a 1St AC on the crew who's on an 8-hour day (union rules) while the rest of the stills crew works until the job is done 14-15 hours on many days. Not to mention now the various motion-picture unions start to take an interest and call you at your hotel, wanting to drop by the set the next day.

All this, and the clients are now demanding budget cuts--they are less interested in paying for equipment, and the added cost of motion-picture level hardware (and insurance) is a real concern. I hear it from Production every time.

I agree with you, i think we'll have to wait and see how it all shakes out. I know i've been wrong plenty of times before. Heck, i bought Sirius stock at $2.50 a share.:001_smile:

-Fran

Good points Fran. I guess this really does depend on what you plan to do with the camera. For someone like me, I'm looking at the Scarlet as my go to cam for when I need mobility, to get into places that are just so tough with R1. I'll mount it on bikes, cars, whatever. I'll throw it in a small camera bag so if something interesting comes along as I' driving in my car, I'll shoot it and have great quality. I'll use the still option when I need it, which certainly won't be as often as I need the video option.

I understand your points about the world of professional still photography, where you have top tier clients and things get complicated very quickly. This convergence could have an impact on that world. As you say, the crew could increase, union complexities, etc. But I guess my question is, if you were doing a video with another camera, these same issues would apply. So if a project requires video, you'd be going through the same process right? The only difference is that your still camera is being used to shoot the video.

 

[Fran Kuhn]

I understand your points about the world of professional still photography, where you have top tier clients and things get complicated very quickly. This convergence could have an impact on that world. As you say, the crew could increase, union complexities, etc. But I guess my question is, if you were doing a video with another camera, these same issues would apply. So if a project requires video, you'd be going through the same process right? The only difference is that your still camera is being used to shoot the video.

Well, that's what you would think at first. But I've found there are some important differences in the way I shoot motion and stills.

If I had a RED setup, it would be on a tripod or dolly, maybe a Steadicam, built up with a mattebox and FF, NDs that have to be pulled and replaced when switching back and forth. And then there's focus--the Canon will auto focus. With RED or any other video or motion film camera, I need the 1st AC to get marks. Plus, when I'm shooting stills, I look like that guy at the beginning of Blow Up, crawling all over the place to get different angles. That might be tough to do with, say, a Scarlet or Epic. At least for me, it's simply much easier and efficient to just grab the Canon and shoot the stills.

The one instance where I'd definitely like to have an all-in-one camera is when shooting from a camera car. I was on a shoot last weekend in downtown LA with a "Russian Rrm" and a Filmotechnics mini Flight Head. The Head Tech managed to get my 1D MK III on board the Flight Head by mounting it upside down under the video camera. The client decided the still cam would not allow the head to get to ground level for low angle shots, so the Tech tried to put it above the video cam. It interfered with the head's ability to tilt up. Had to pull it off and go without.

-Fran

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I believe firmly that RED's impact has already been felt in the world of still photography more then some of us know, I was under the wrong impression, when showing off some test shots that I was doing something so special with the RED, but I was only doing something as special as many others were already doing.

I trust Jim's direction with the DSMC system so much that I have just but sold every single piece of Photography gear I had ever own, funny in off only I got two Profoto D1 Air Monolights left, I also had some consideration about shooting entirely with continuos lighting, but after few tests with the R1 I see n need to continue to use the Strobes even for photography, I truly look forward to the DSMC system and the tremendous opportunities that it will bring.

Now all I will do till the DSMC system will be available for purchase is buy gear that I can use with the R1 and build my self up so that one the DSMC do come out, all I'll need is the cameras.

I have made the mistake once to get 3 R1's and no money left for Lenses and other Gear, it will not happen again, I take this opportunity of time and get ready for it, mean wile I'll have tone of fun with the R1's.

ciao

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Hi Justin,

I don't think anyone is saying it is unsuitable for everyone. It certainly will work for some situations.

-Fran

Hi Fran, my post definitely wasn't directed at you. I occasionally run across posters in still forums who claim no one will ever have a need for the stills/motion DSMC. Robert comes close in this thread, saying the worlds shouldn't converge.

As far as answering Matthias' questions, it is hard because RED is keeping many details behind closed doors because they know the competition is watching.

The still photographers we have worked with have easily made the transition from strobes to constant light. Some of them already had kinos.

Working in motion definitely costs more money then shooting stills. Something I often find myself telling people is that if you and your client don't need to shoot more then 3fps there is absolutely no reason to get a DSMC. There are plenty of clients out there who do value motion, though, and they have the budgets to support it.

Pulling stills from RED One footage can be a bit hit or miss because of the low shutter speed required for motion. One of our photographer clients has been finding he likes some of the blurred shots. We definitely haven't had a problem with sharpness. We've actually been surprised at how many good stills we are able to pull. The stills/motion switch on the DSMC is going to make this a thousand times easier. You will be able to program different settings (shutter, etc.) for stills and motion and switch back and forth with a flick of your thumb.

The wavelet compression of REDCODE as not been noticeable in any of the stills we have pulled so far.

We don't know the dynamic range of the next generation Mysterium sensors that will be used in the DSMC. We haven't had problem with stills pulled from the RED One because we are usually shooting in controlled conditions.

Once the DSMC has been released it will be much easier to discuss these issues in detail. We have some pieces of the puzzle now, but as Jim is so fond of saying, everything is subject to change.

 

[Matthias Hutter]

Hi again.
@Robert Craig: I'm currently a amateur Canon shooter, with A4 and 13x19" being my common print sizes. As for video, I have mainly done post work on hobby-projects years ago, but stopped because I currently don't have time for both. I think the convergence of stills photography with video equipment is inevitable with electronics improvements. I think High Data Throughputs will still remain difficult, though.

@Jannard: As Fran already said, I think that for those high end shooters where equipment costs are negligible but a efficient work flow is everything, especially REDs future offerings really could have a high impact, looking at the current medium format cameras. But for most stills pros camera budget is a issue.

@Steve: I think the main reason for Canon/Nikon Brand loyalty is their pro still lenses lineup. The lenses will probably work full manual on the new DSMCs, but I don't think auto focus will work as RED would have to reverse engineer it. Third Party lenses could work with firmware-upgrade, though.

On a final note, as an electronics engineer and physics student I can tell that developing such high-end electronics is really hard and time-intensive (especially bug-fixing and polishing). So of course the final judgment is really only possible when the DSMCs are actually in stock. But I think speculation is interesting nevertheless. :smile5:

 

[Emiliano Ranzani]

Sorry... going to disagree with you 100%.

Jim

I must say I too I am afraid of mixing the two disciplines - especially on the human side - like seeing photographers being called in place of cameramen because now they use the same piece of equipment, even though it has to be used in different ways. Some might say that it will just come down to personal skills (after all, a photographer can also be a cameraman and some good DOP I know started with still work), but we all know that in many situations the clients just look for the cheaper solution, not caring if what they're getting is 100% right (and if you don't work for the big boys, you know what I mean).
Weddings immediatly come to mind (and luckly, they're not my business), but also about corporate and industrial videos (and that's part of my territory), as many enterprises need both videos and stills.
And what about all the jobs connected with the music industry? I can see many cheap producers ditching promotional photos for their musicians in favour of grabs taken out of a music video or a live concert.

And that's a bit scary, even though it certainly won't happen after the immediate release of the DSMC system.

 

[christopher witzke]

Never in 20 years as a stills ad shooter have I had a client say after a project " gee... I sure wish you used a different camera for that shoot... we're just not happy "....

It's all about TRUST... the client trusts your skills and judgement regarding the gear you use... that's why they hire you. Not because of the gear it's self. BUT... if your gear is not reliable and causes problems with a project, they won't trust you anymore.

I know a few photographers that really don't care much about technology. They're the type that care more about the content of an image than anything else. If you put a RED in front of one of these guys, they would be scared to death of it... to many buttons, menus, connectors, parts, etc. It's more of a personality than anything else. I personally love both the artistic and technical side of image making... both old and new. It's in our DNA to reach out and test what we can do... push it.... make it better.

If someone broke into my studio and stole all my stills gear today, I'd have no problem shooting a spread or series tomorrow with my RED. I'm that confident in it as a stills camera.

 

[Emiliano Ranzani]

That really depends on the clients - there are many serious people out there who judge on the results and are happy to pay for the good ones. But there are also too many questionable ones who think they know the job and try to dictate on the equipment for their own convenience - I've seen pictures that should've been taken with a DSLR being shot with a camcorder simply because they didn't want to call in a photographer - and then blaming the guy with the camcorder because the quality wasn't up to their expectations.

 

[Steve Gibby]

An open mind is a serious asset in approaching a multi-use camera like the DSMC. Vast amounts of conjecture on this thread are just that – conjecture – because the tech specs for the DSMC line of cameras have not been finalized. The only one on this entire thread who knows the final tech specs (although that is undoubtedly a moving target) is Jim Jannard. I’d suggest you put much more value on his statements than anyone else on this thread. When Jim says he is going to do something – he delivers (Oakley, RED, etc.).

I think back to 2005 when Jim announced RED One, and the chorus of naysayers, traditionalists, and loyalists in the cinema industries who for various reasons and agendas posted negative opinions about RED One, RED’s ability to produce such a camera, and that a modular, flexible, utilitarian camera would never be a success in the cinema industry. Fast forward to today: those naysayers have had to eat their words, are in the process of doing so (quietly of course), or are stubbornly letting their competition in their industry get the advantage of them by refusing to evolve with their industry.

Now lets analyze this thread. It was the 2nd post on RED User for the guy who started it. After having been a member of RED User since day one, and having been a moderator here too, in my experience guys who enter this board with a negative first post have an agenda, are trolling, or simply like to stir things up. I'm not necessarily saying thats the case with this poster, but since the DSMC tech specs haven’t even been finalized it is futile to speculate on what a DSMC camera can or can’t do. A quick use of the Search tool here on RED User will bring up previous threads of the same topic since 12/3/08 when RED announced the DSMC. Since the tech specs haven't been finalized, much less a DSMC available for field testing, its best not to draw any conclusions on its capabilities yet.

Other posters here somehow can’t wrap their heads around a multi-use camera. Media convergence, and its accompanying tech convergence, enables the formerly separate industries of still photography, cinematography, and videography to be done by a multi-skilled person who has experience in all three formerly separate disciplines. Sure, the compartmentalized approach of unions will not be fertile territory for DSMC work. But union work is a drop in the bucket to the overall quotient of imaging work done worldwide each year, which is overwhelmingly non-union – thus enabling multi-skilled workers with multi-capable camera systems to flourish. If you choose to work union and be compartmentalized into a specific job classification, fine that is valid for you, you’ve made your choice. But it is useless to criticize a multi-use camera system like the proposed DSMC from a union-centric perspective - IMO that is simply not the DSMC target market.

There are also posters here who somehow feel motion work has to be done with a cluster of cine accessories and assistants – matte box, follow focus, AC, etc. You’re missing the whole point of a flexible, modular, multi-use camera like the DSMC. You don’t need all those accessories and crew (and thus expense) to nail great shots with a camera like DSMC - or RED One for that matter. I’ve owned several RED One cameras for two years now, including one of them since the very first day RED One was delivered (8/30/07). While large numbers of vocal users of RED One have felt the need to approach Red One as strictly a cine camera, with tons of cine accessories and crew, my approach for me and my crews has been to minimize the accessories to what is absolutely essential, thus enabling a lighter camera setup for increased mobility. This style is mobile hybrid EFP/cine – and it’s a great choice for the huge amounts of non-union imaging work done each year – and we’ve done extremely well in a business sense using that approach to RED One - small mobile crews, just the necessary accessories, workable budgets, and great images.

For bidding corporate and business projects a DSMC approach can be the clincher in getting the project. One stop shopping, rather than having to get separate bids for motion and stills work, has distinct advantages and savings for busy executives – stills and motion shot all by the same small, mobile, highly-skilled crew – at reasonable rates.

Some brought up sports production and events. Those are some of my core areas. I’ve produced/directed/shot television coverage of sports events in size from specials at the Super Bowl down to small alternative sports events – for over 30 years now. We invariably need both stills and motion footage when documenting an event. We’ve always had to carry two types of camera systems – motion and stills, because our work ends up on TV, in magazines, and on web sites. A DSMC camera, where at the flick of a switch we can shift gears from motion to stills profiles, and simply adjust our shooting style on the fly for what we need, will be a dream tool for our work, which is non-union, small crew, moderate budget, and centers on multi-tasking and multi-skills in a dynamic, fast moving workplace. Let’s just wait until the tech specs for the DSMC are finalized, and the cameras are in distribution to judge the limitations on DSMC usage – and what lenses will or won’t work fully on them.

So you know where I’m coming from, I’ve been a stills photographer for over 40 years, a cinematographer for over 30 years, and a videographer for over 30 years. I also work extensively as a producer and director for national television productions, high-end business media, commercials, and stock footage is a very important part of my business. I keep an open mind in approaching equipment choices, and because of the mobile nature of my work, I look for equipment that is flexible, modular, adaptable, and cost-effective – thus my early adoption of RED One, and soon to be adoption of Epic and Scarlet (DSMC and fixed lens versions).

If you want to stay with your carrying two different cameras approach - stills and motion - fine, have at it. I won't be - but I promise you I'll be out-bidding my competition for imaging productions - because if I can deliver the network's or client's standard of quality for both motion and stills at a better rate than others by using multi-purpose cameras, I'll be winning the bids and getting the productions.

This post isn’t meant to offend anyone – but merely to give an alternate view of the DSMC and multi-use cameras by someone who sees their potential, just as I saw early and have maximized RED One’s potential. To be sure, there will be some specialized genres of stills work and motion work that a DSMC will probably not be ideal for. But lets all just wait until the tech specs for the DSMC are finalized, and early adopters like me get the first cameras into production, before we draw any hard conclusions on what a DSMC can or can't do.