Very basic question about RED FCP Workflow

[Yousuf Abbasi]

Pardon me for posting such a basic question, but what's the point of recording in 4K if FCP and Color can only handle up to 2K?

I understand downconverting 4K to 2K in FCP is better quality than shooting in 2K, but my question is really about what if you wanted to have a final 4K output?

Thanks!

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

FCP and Color will eventually catch up to what the camera can do.

You can use Clipfinder to re-conform you clips, meanwhile, if you need true 4K output...

or just use the Adobe workflow, which seems to work quite nicely...

 

[Brandon Fraley]

Pardon me for posting such a basic question, but what's the point of recording in 4K if FCP and Color can only handle up to 2K?

I understand downconverting 4K to 2K in FCP is better quality than shooting in 2K, but my question is really about what if you wanted to have a final 4K output?

Thanks!

there's no real need to edit in 4K, most computer have a hard time dealing with the 2K material in real time. So edit 2K (or even SD) and then when you're finished, you can conform the edit back to 4K outside of FCP, if you want.

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

FCP and Color will eventually catch up to what the camera can do.

You can use Clipfinder to re-conform you clips, meanwhile, if you need true 4K output...

or just use the Adobe workflow, which seems to work quite nicely...

Do you have a resource that I can review which explains how to use clipfinder to reconform for 4k output? Is there any loss of quality or restrictions going this route?

I'd like to stay in FCP if at all possible, but from the FCP whitepaper, it seemed like 4K output was not possible.

 

[Brandon Fraley]

I'd like to stay in FCP if at all possible, but from the FCP whitepaper, it seemed like 4K output was not possible.

you have to go outside FCP for 4K output. Again though, a 4K master is a little extreme for these times. It's easy to get an industry standard 2K master from FCP, and if you need 4K, not too difficult to use something like crimson to get a 4K version.

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

there's no real need to edit in 4K, most computer have a hard time dealing with the 2K material in real time. So edit 2K (or even SD) and then when you're finished, you can conform the edit back to 4K outside of FCP, if you want.

Brandon, you're right. In fact, I'd like to edit using perhaps a low-res version (like 1K or .5K) for all my editing & color grading, then eventually output my final edit in 4K without having any loss of quality. Is that possible currently under a FCP workflow?

 

[Brandon Fraley]

Brandon, you're right. In fact, I'd like to edit using perhaps a low-res version (like 1K or .5K) for all my editing & color grading, then eventually output my final edit in 4K without having any loss of quality. Is that possible currently under a FCP workflow?

again, you can't output 4K from FCP, but yes, you can edit in 1K and then use popular applications like crimson, clipfinder, and monkey extract, to conform that edit to 4K. Although, because your going back to your negative, I don't believe you color grade will pass over to the 4K version. Your color grade should be your last step.

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

again, you can't output 4K from FCP, but yes, you can edit in 1K and then use popular applications like crimson, clipfinder, and monkey extract, to conform that edit to 4K. Although, because your going back to your negative, I don't believe you color grade will pass over to the 4K version. Your color grade should be your last step.

So you're saying edit in low-resolution in FCP, then once done with edit, conform to 4K (with no loss of quality?). I understand that part and that's actually pretty cool.

For color grade, though, I thought it was the same issue that Color can handle only up to 2K. So, after I've reconformed to 4K, how would I color grade using Color?

Thanks, this is super helpful!

 

[Brandon Fraley]

So you're saying edit in low-resolution in FCP, then once done with edit, conform to 4K (with no loss of quality?). I understand that part and that's actually pretty cool.

For color grade, though, I thought it was the same issue that Color can handle only up to 2K. So, after I've reconformed to 4K, how would I color grade using Color?

Thanks, this is super helpful!

The process of conforming is going back to your original negative and grabing the highest quality possible, it's not like uprezzing your current low res project, so yes it will be much higher quality.

Color will only handle 2K, so you won't be able to grade 4K material with it. if you use crimson, it will allow you to use REDCINE's color tools, which are pretty good, but are really only for "one light" corrections and won't allow secondaries or other advanced features.

So in order to get the best grade on the the highest res, you need acces to something like a pablo or da vinci or scratch system.

I feel like mentioning again though, 2K is the current industry standard. I mean, I saw spiderman 2 in IMAX and it was a 2K scan. The fact that you can cut and grade 2K material all through FCS is pretty amazing.

Unless you have a specific need, I'd finish in 2K. As long as you keep your FCP project and those original .r3d's you'll always have your negative and if someone wants to pay for you to do a 4K master, you'll have everything you need to do it laster on.

 

[Leandro Marini]

4K offline

4K offline

Good questions here.

Red is following the workflow of almost every professional camera system. Take film or a high end HD ( like the Genisis ) as an example. its just not practicle to edit in the "native" resolutions and color spaces of those camers ( especially film, even when we used to cut film on a steinbeck, you were working with a "work print" ).

So when you edit, you want the speed and flexibility of lower-rez, offline media. ( BTW, 2K proress is an amazing way to edit. we used to have to edit DV even when shooting 35 ). And when you online, you want none of the compression of offline.

I know it seems cumbersome but it really is the best way to work. If you want to finish in 4K, find an offline and online combination that gives you the best of both worlds. Adobe does it well, Scratch is best.

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

These are great answers, thank you. So when going the route of 4K output, using the Crimson/Redcine combination is the preferred method (versus using another conforming tool like Clipfinder, which I assume will not give you access to Redcine's 4K color correction).

I'm just curious, how does FCP keep track of each clip and it's RAW (negative) counterpart? Must a certain FCP workflow be defined from the very beginning so that ultimately Crimson can tie back the low-res edit with the negatives (i.e. must I start with Proxies, or use ProRes, etc)?

When you say REDCINE allows only "one-light" color correction and not "secondaries," what does that mean?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is helping me a lot.

P.S.
I thought IMAX quality was like 9K... wouldn't blowing up a 2K image to fit IMAX screen show pretty noticeable noise? The reason I'm interested in 4K is because that will be the closest resolution to 35mm when doing a film-out (right?).

 

[Brandon Fraley]

Crimson indeed interfaces with RED CINE, allowing you to grade with it's color tools. I'm unsure if the others can do that or not. If you're looking for the CHEAPEST 4K master, I would think that would be the way to go.

You'll have to read about each workflow itself, but usually you name the low res file the same name as your .r3d file, and keep them in the same folder. so that after you edit, these other programs will look in the folder for the low res file you're using and look to see if there is an .r3d file of the same name. A little more to it than that, but that's the general idea of how all these programs know how to grab the right .r3d.

One light refers to a general, overall correction (white balance, brightness, red, green, blue, gain, etc), secondaries refer to corrections that only effect an isolated part of the image (make the sky bluer, desaturate her hair, make green flowers red, etc).

All the different "K" claims of various film producers are arguable, and I PRAY this thread doesn't turn into a film vs digital fest, but the FACT is that most people (including myself) can't tell the difference between a 35mm film projection that was printed from 35mm or 2K scan.

I've heard that 35mm negative is about 4K and that IMAX negative is as much as 16K. But like I said, Bill Pope, Cinematographer for the spiderman movies, said he lokked into doing 4K scans of those movies and just prefered the look of the 2K scans, so that's what they went with. Looked fine to me

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

Crimson indeed interfaces with RED CINE, allowing you to grade with it's color tools. I'm unsure if the others can do that or not. If you're looking for the CHEAPEST 4K master, I would think that would be the way to go.

It all makes sense, thanks. Lastly, it seems like there are a number of programs that sort of do the same thing, but maybe do something different too. Do you know what the difference is between these, and why you would want to use each one:

REDCine
REDAlert
REDRushes
REDLine
Clipfinder
Crimson
Monkey Extract

So much to keep up with, but why?

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Shoot 4K, post at 2K, still right for 99% of projects

Shoot 4K, post at 2K, still right for 99% of projects

In practical terms 4K is used at acquisition to get the benefits of "oversampling" and to ensure a legit 2K image after debayering (nominally 3.2K). Your thread title included the phrase "very basic question" and your post indicated a "roll your own" desktop post environment - save yourself some headaches and forget about 4K deliverables, it will only divert you from the important task of creating first rate 2K deliverables.

If it makes you sleep better, and assuming you archive the r3d files and the FCP project files, you could re-conform at 4K in the future.

Cheers- #19

 

[Brandon Fraley]

In practical terms 4K is used at acquisition to get the benefits of "oversampling" and to ensure a legit 2K image after debayering (nominally 3.2K). Your thread title included the phrase "very basic question" and your post indicated a "roll your own" desktop post environment - save yourself some headaches and forget about 4K deliverables, it will only divert you from the important task of creating first rate 2K deliverables.

If it makes you sleep better, and assuming you archive the r3d files and the FCP project files, you could re-conform at 4K in the future.

Cheers- #19

Blair's right on the money. You need a very specific reason to finish in 4K, otherwise, 2K is the way to go. And as long as you keep your FCP project and .r3d's, you'll always be able to go 4K in the future.

As for conforming, the only ones applicable on your list are crimson, clipfinder, and monkey extract. Honestly I don't know much about them. I know that Crimson was the first, and I understand the workflow a little bit. Edit with the camera generated proxies, export edl to crimson, crimson loads the edl into REDCINE using the .r3d's, color grade in REDCINE, then output 4K DPX sequences.

I don't know if Clipfinder refers back to the .r3d. It maybe QT only. The main thing I know about clipfinder is that it's free

never really looked into Monkey Extract. All these programs have websites though, plus all the creators are readily available on this site to answer questions and such.

And of course there are higher end systems that will conform, like Scratch, but if your looking for a cheaper, do-it-yourself option than those 3 are probably your best bet.

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

If it makes you sleep better, and assuming you archive the r3d files and the FCP project files, you could re-conform at 4K in the future.

I hear what you're saying, I think finishing in 2K is the best option until there is a easier/cleaner/less-intensive way to finish in 4K. When archiving the r3d and fcp project files for future 4K finish, is there a recommended way to archive them, so as to provide for fast & seamless 4K finish when time comes?

Thanks for all your help guys. I guess from what I'm reading, finishing in 2K isn't that bad for film-transfer. As long as I know it won't be a huge hassle to go 4K in the future, that makes me feel better. :smiley:

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

Blair's right on the money. You need a very specific reason to finish in 4K, otherwise, 2K is the way to go. And as long as you keep your FCP project and .r3d's, you'll always be able to go 4K in the future.

As for conforming, the only ones applicable on your list are crimson, clipfinder, and monkey extract. Honestly I don't know much about them. I know that Crimson was the first, and I understand the workflow a little bit. Edit with the camera generated proxies, export edl to crimson, crimson loads the edl into REDCINE using the .r3d's, color grade in REDCINE, then output 4K DPX sequences.

I don't know if Clipfinder refers back to the .r3d. It maybe QT only. The main thing I know about clipfinder is that it's free

never really looked into Monkey Extract. All these programs have websites though, plus all the creators are readily available on this site to answer questions and such.

And of course there are higher end systems that will conform, like Scratch, but if your looking for a cheaper, do-it-yourself option than those 3 are probably your best bet.

Got it. Great job guys, I feel so enlightened now. This is all very new to me but thankfully I have your guys' help. Thanks again!

 

[Brandon Fraley]

Got it. Great job guys, I feel so enlightened now. This is all very new to me but thankfully I have your guys' help. Thanks again!

glad to help, and don't worry , a 2K film out looks awesome!arty:

 

[Brendan H. Banks]

This has been a super helpful thread, so thanks everyone. Still trying to figure out the best way to do it, but now I have a lot of the information.

I know a 16k scan in for IMAX was mentioned...not sure if it helps but I know that the highest resolution VFX were rendered and printed at a full 5.6k for Transformers 2 (IMAX robot battle scenes). Just a tidbit I thought you might like to know.

Thanks also to the creators of Clipfinder and Crimson.

 

[Alexander Alexandrov]

i'm an fcp/color user. where do you guys color if you use Premiere?