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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Trade-in Epic X for Epic FF35

david farland

david farland

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How much will a 2nd hand Epic X be?

You may or may not want to upgrade depending on.....
- your Epic X use and s35 lens investment.
- Epic X -> Epic FF35 upgrade deals from Red.
- Epic X sensor upgrade potential.
- Latency of Epic ff35 release.
- availability of FF35 pro-cine lenses.
- and of course your R1 serial number.

Trade off may become....sell Epic X for Epic ff35 for additional 2 stops and less resolution (5.4 vs 6.0 um pixels) or buy FF35 lenses as well as Epic ff35.

Anyway, you may want to sell your Epic X (body only) to a 3rd party for cash for an Epic ff35.
Or if your Epic ff35 number is up, you could sell the old Epic X accessories for close to new and buy accessories with your Epic ff35.

Either way, will there be a market for second hand Epic Xs? How much...$20K?

Thoughts?
Dave,
 
Sensor upgrades (affordable ones < $5000) would make a big difference to the value of the Epic-X.

Specs and pricing are subject to change, but pretending that the current camera prices and specs are stable - my guess is that you could sell a used Epic-X brain for about $12k. The reason for the low price is that the Scarlet FF35 is going to be for sale at $10k. It has a better, larger chip. It would have the new factory warranty, and it could handle slow motion for short bursts. Epic-X has faster frame rates, and produces a less compressed file, but those features might not be enough to sway people to pay lots of money for your camera compared to buying the FF35 Scarlet.

Again though, all the prices and specs are subject to change, so coming up with guesstimates at this point would be mostly useless. I'm hoping Jim will lower the price of the Epic cameras before the shipping date arrives, to close the large price gap between the Epic and Scarlet cameras.
 
Mark B. said:
I'm hoping Jim will lower the price of the Epic cameras before the shipping date arrives, to close the large price gap between the Epic and Scarlet cameras.
Click to expand...

that would kill the RED ONE market..

we have a smaller sensor... but we have variable frame rates
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
that would kill the RED ONE market..

we have a smaller sensor... but we have variable frame rates
Click to expand...

Red One's can be upgraded to Epic, so if Epic gets cheaper then that's better for Red One owners (and everyone else too).
 
My opinion is that with the announcements of Scarlet/ Epic X, FF35, 645, 617 Jim and the gang created a hype, but they also created a knowledge of the shelf life for our future cameras.

It doesn't matter if they keep their deadlines or not. It will still be seen as it has 1 year. So IMO RED cameras will have the same life as DSLR cameras and/ or (god forgive) computers. As soon as serial number doesn't mean a spot in the queue for an upgrade path the cameras will be worth a lot less.
 
Epic X resale value of $10K. That is such an interesting thought!!

- For $50K we got a 4K camera with accessories.
- For say $20K more we can upgrade the R1 to another Red camera (Epic X) with 10% more latitude, 10% more resolution and 3X fps.
- For yet another $20K (33K-10K) we can upgrade the Epic X to an FF35 with 20% more latitude, 10% less resolution (w/o FF35 lenses).

D
 
Mark B. said:
Sensor upgrades (affordable ones < $5000) would make a big difference to the value of the Epic-X.

Specs and pricing are subject to change, but pretending that the current camera prices and specs are stable - my guess is that you could sell a used Epic-X brain for about $12k. The reason for the low price is that the Scarlet FF35 is going to be for sale at $10k. It has a better, larger chip. It would have the new factory warranty, and it could handle slow motion for short bursts. Epic-X has faster frame rates, and produces a less compressed file, but those features might not be enough to sway people to pay lots of money for your camera compared to buying the FF35 Scarlet.

Again though, all the prices and specs are subject to change, so coming up with guesstimates at this point would be mostly useless. I'm hoping Jim will lower the price of the Epic cameras before the shipping date arrives, to close the large price gap between the Epic and Scarlet cameras.
Click to expand...

To figure this out you have to look at two aspects, the technology and the business.

1) Technology: The REDONE is essentially a prototype or at least first gen camera. REDONE is excellent, game changing, and very fairly priced but still has issues. Its physical/electronic architecture compared to the next gen Epics is more like a desktop computer to a modern DSLR - modular circuit card/backplane vs. the more robust highly integrated architecture of the typical DSLR. Consequently, it is a bit too power hungry, and a bit too quirky for the mainstream of the industry to fully embrace (and to be fair this is basically true in one way or another with Dalso, Viper, Arri, etc. electronic cameras too) given the huge budgets and reputations at stake. And over the long term the current REDONE architecture in a rough and tumble portable application is probably inherently more prone to failures.

I think RED's ultimate goal - and they have laid the foundation - is to make the Epic-X the workhorse standard of the industry. With ASICs it will be smaller, lighter, more robust and much lower power, and it should be more solid in general and over the long term. Increased reliability combined with the current well developed camera firmware, color science, and codecs plus true 4K (after debayer) resolution, and tremendous options for S35 lenses, should mean there is no technical OR practical reason the Epics shouldn't be a comfortable choice for anyone considering electronic acquisition. So I think RED's goal is to get EVERY REDONE traded in.

As far as the pricing difference between the cameras, there probably isn't that much actual hard cost increase between the Scarlet S35 and Epic-X and as pointed out the technical differences may not be huge. But they are there and they are real. There isn't a HUGE quality difference between say a Sony EX3 and the F23, but it's there and you have to pay a big multiplier in dollars to get that last bit of extra performance.

$28K for an uncompromised camera just isn't that much for most professional users - less than $600/mo lease payment - and many of us paid much more than that for our Sony Betacams. The 17500 full credit on our REDONE's makes it more attractive and should get the vast majority of REDONE's traded in. Another reason for the high price on Epic-X is that there is no reason RED should lose money on the exchange and once Epic and Scarlet are out, because of technological, competitive, support, and other reasons, it won't make sense for RED to try to resell or recoup anything (other than spares inventory) from the traded in REDONEs. They certainly won't make normal manufacturing margings on the EpicXs at the 10K tradein but they will probably cover all of their direct costs. And I think RED will try to hold the price level on the Epics. Even though it will leave a large gap between Scarlet and Epic pricing - which could allow competitors to come in a year or so down the line with similar technology at the midrange price point (say 17.5) by then RED will have sold thousands of Epics and if all goes as expected it will be tough to overcome as it will be seen as the standard of the industry.

Now on to the big question:
So, Jim when can I have my Epic-X?

(sing with me to the tune of Money for Nothing/I want my MTV...) "I ..want.. my.. Ep..ic..X..!
 
Red has stated categorically that there will be no sensor upgrades in DSMC brains, because the sensor is tied to the processing components inside the brain.

In the end, I imagine that most pros will want to work on FF35 Monstro. I know all the arguments about lenses, but I also know that once people really get a taste of shooting full-frame motion with that badass new sensor, they are going to figure out ways to address the lens situation.

IMO, it will make sense for a lot of R1 owners to wait for FF35 Epic. If there are hundreds of Epic-X brains suddenly on the market at the same tiime, there could be a glut. Then again, if you are working a lot and renting out your camera a lot, then you could easily afford to get Epic-X, sell it, and trade up to FF35. It will depend on personal situations.
 
Seeing as how it's a next-gen sensor, you will probably see improved ISO/ASA ratings with Monstro as well, which is hugely important to many of us.
 
Yeah...Red have said the Monstro with it's 6 micron pixels will be 2+ stops over the Mysterium X.
They also mentioned the adc would be 16bit...unless they've countered that since.
Hope we'll get another stop (or so) out of the sensor also.

$10K trade-in for a Epic X body, looks a little weak because if you paid $17K for a R1, added $10K to get the 28K Epic X (plus say $7K accessories), you have paid $20K for the Epic X body.
I'd hope (particularly early on) people may want either a second or first Epic X body only.
Also be dependant on whether you could drive the Epic X with only R1 accessories....anyone?
D
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I believe only the Monstro sensor will be 14-bit (the others are 12-bit) which may or may not promise greater dynamic range, which is the main reason I'm interested in it. But I could be wrong.
Click to expand...

With that sensor, do you see yourself still shooting in an S35 format, or the larger full frame format with even shallower depth of field/critical focus issues?
 
david farland said:
$10K trade-in for a Epic X body, looks a little weak because if you paid $17K for a R1, added $10K to get the 28K Epic X (plus say $7K accessories), you have paid $20K for the Epic X body.
Click to expand...

Hi keep in mind that the RED one should have paid for itself by the time you upgrade to Epic X and that should be recouped before you upgrade again. If it's not the case then the case for ownership for you is not very strong. Seems like a $10k gift to me
 
maybe some people here think the ownership as a basic business.. like rentals or 2-days shooting commercials business.. for some who's used to think any truly indy movie project on at least bimonthly basis.. it is not.
 
david farland said:
Yeah...Red have said the Monstro with it's 6 micron pixels will be 2+ stops over the Mysterium X.
They also mentioned the adc would be 16bit...unless they've countered that since.
Hope we'll get another stop (or so) out of the sensor also.

$10K trade-in for a Epic X body, looks a little weak because if you paid $17K for a R1, added $10K to get the 28K Epic X (plus say $7K accessories), you have paid $20K for the Epic X body.
I'd hope (particularly early on) people may want either a second or first Epic X body only.
Also be dependant on whether you could drive the Epic X with only R1 accessories....anyone?
D
Click to expand...

Well you can always spend $150 to $250K for a SONY 1080P camera :001_tt2:
 
ho hum..here we go. If you read the subject line "trade in Epic-X for Epic FF35" it suggests buying an Epic FF35 after the Epic X.
What will it cost to have an Epic X for the 4-5months until the Epic FF35 is available ...>$20,000?
That's $4,000 - $5,000 per month!!...something to think about!
So the thread is intended to weigh up business case/ROI scenarios in your particular business...not some twitter about gifts/sony cameras.
Dave,
 
For all we know, it could be a year between Epic X and Monstro. No one really knows.
 
sure...we can only go on their published dates and they're affirmed the first new camera release date.
Be an interesting poll of who will buy an Epic X then an Epic FF35, as soon as they can.
 
Roberto B said:
maybe some people here think the ownership as a basic business.. like rentals or 2-days shooting commercials business.. for some who's used to think any truly indy movie project on at least bimonthly basis.. it is not.
Click to expand...

Probably the reasons that productions have traditionally rented equipment.
 
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