RPPs, ready out of the box?

[Shawn Nelson]

I started to post this in another thread but thought I shouldn't threadjack...

To Jim, Jarred or whomever at Red want's to take this...I assume that the RPPs arrive to us already set, shimmed and inspected thoroughly and properly? There was off-Reduser discussion today about whether Red is QCing and setting these up or if Red has the assumption that the RPPs aren't ready for prime time out of the box. For instance, I know a lot of people who sent back in a number of 18-50s before they found ones that were to their standards (effectively becoming their own QC), which kind of puts those of us who can't analyze to that level (that'd be me) at a disadvantage. Put differently, would you recommend that every RPP purchaser put the lenses through Duclos (or another similar lens expert) after buying them to make sure they are ready to rock?

 

[Andrew Walker]

I would only assume RED has learned something with the whole 18-50mm RED Zoom problem. Granted the RED 18-50mm Zoom is nice for what you pay but you still need to weed through some bad ones to get a good one. I like the one I have now but it wasn't my first. I'm sure they are doing a good amount of QC with the RPP's as it would be kind of self-defeating if they didn't. Jim put a lot of work into showing how badass these lenses are and how they stack up to the MP's and S4's.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

I started to post this in another thread but thought I shouldn't threadjack...

To Jim, Jarred or whomever at Red want's to take this...I assume that the RPPs arrive to us already set, shimmed and inspected thoroughly and properly? There was off-Reduser discussion today about whether Red is QCing and setting these up or if Red has the assumption that the RPPs aren't ready for prime time out of the box. For instance, I know a lot of people who sent back in a number of 18-50s before they found ones that were to their standards (effectively becoming their own QC), which kind of puts those of us who can't analyze to that level (that'd be me) at a disadvantage. Put differently, would you recommend that every RPP purchaser put the lenses through Duclos (or another similar lens expert) after buying them to make sure they are ready to rock?

Shawn- good points, but u were at reduser in Vegas, didnt you pick them up? those demo seemed beautifully calibrated to me and light years from the 18-50. if they are indeed mfg in Japan, as Jim stated. I can assure you they have QC. Afterall, Japanese QC is what revolutionized the car business and precision manufacturing.

Aside from some mis-markings (because of a good error) I trust they will ship as solidly as they looked at NAB.

 

[Tim Sutherland]

There's a difference between quality control and getting the lens collimated exactly correctly. Just because a lens isn't shimmed just right doesn't mean it doesn't pass QC.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading a comment from Jarred somewhere that they were checking them out. I think that would be the case as most people can't check to see if it needs a shim because it's out a few thousandths.

 

[Steve Freebairn]

if they are indeed mfg in Japan, as Jim stated. I can assure you they have QC. Afterall, Japanese QC is what revolutionized the car business and precision manufacturing.

Did Jim say this online or at NAB?

 

[JonathanF]

There's a difference between quality control and getting the lens collimated exactly correctly. Just because a lens isn't shimmed just right doesn't mean it doesn't pass QC.

I'm sure the quality will be fine when they get to Red in Socal.

That said, I wouldn't shoot a frame without sending new optics out for a once over by someone like Abel or some other shop that had the correct equipment for checking my optics. For those not in LA or NY the cost of a few hundred dollar flight is nothing compared to blowing a shoot.

When you get your lenses shipped who knows what shenanigans went down during shipping. One good hit in transit and you could be out of collumnation.

If I were you I'd take them in and have them all measured and checked before you shoot with them and then hand carry them home on the plane.

:J

 

[Shawn Nelson]

That said, I wouldn't shoot a frame without sending new optics out for a once over by someone like Abel or some other shop that had the correct equipment for checking my optics.

That's EXACTLY what I am asking about, I have expectations of NOT needing to do this. Shouldn't Red have "the correct equipment for checking my optics" if they are in the business of selling professional cinema lenses? If I pay nearly $20k for a set of primes, shouldn't they ready to go? But that's why I'm asking, because this is a new area for me. Red?

 

[NormLi]

They are doing intense QC for each lens before shipping out I hear. BUT...yes, shipping and handling could defeat their QC if they do take a hit somehow during transit.

 

[Birns and Sawyer]

The problem is that lens collimation is something that is not the kind of thing you can just set once and never change again. Do lenses have to have their shims changed from time to time? Yes. Is it often? No. We collimate every lens when it returns from every rental job. So the problem could be that even if RED sets the lens correctly (which I believe is likely they will do), in a perfect world you would double check and then as mentioned before, hand carry them home.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

They are doing intense QC for each lens before shipping out I hear. BUT...yes, shipping and handling could defeat their QC if they do take a hit somehow during transit.

This idea that a lens can be great and get bumped in shipping (even if in a great Innerspace case presumably) and get out of whack concerns me.

The problem is that lens collimation is something that is not the kind of thing you can just set once and never change again. Do lenses have to have their shims changed from time to time? Yes. Is it often? No. We collimate every lens when it returns from every rental job. So the problem could be that even if RED sets the lens correctly (which I believe is likely they will do), in a perfect world you would double check and then as mentioned before, hand carry them home.

Since I am in Oregon, it would seem that sending them off to Duclos (or whomever) is out of the question, as he could set them perfectly and then oops, bumped during shipment. So how does one go about learning to collimate, inspect and shim lenses? Hopefully Red will assist in the education processs somehow (especially how it relates specifically to the RPPs)

 

[Paul Hazlett]

I don't think the mechanics of the lenses will be that fragile that a bump in a well padded case will be enough to jar the lens hard enough to send it out of whack.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

I don't think the mechanics of the lenses will be that fragile that a bump in a well padded case will be enough to jar the lens hard enough to send it out of whack.

I would surely hope not, but that's why I am asking.

 

[Vincent S]

I really can't see a bump in shipping as a issue, really these things should take more of a beating than a old Nikon.

 

[Evin Grant]

So how does one go about learning to collimate, inspect and shim lenses? Hopefully Red will assist in the education processs somehow (especially how it relates specifically to the RPPs)

You would need optical collimating bench and a lot of shims. It's is not a owner/op deal.

I don't think the mechanics of the lenses will be that fragile that a bump in a well padded case will be enough to jar the lens hard enough to send it out of whack.

I agree, and if it is then we have bigger problems than keeping them shimmed.

 

[Birns and Sawyer]

I just checked with our lens guy to see what he had to say.

With transportation, the only things that could affect the collimation would be temperature variances, but that would only cause a difference of one line width in focusing, which is within tolerance.

The lens tech told me that the two main reasons that a lens would be out of collimation would be a mistake in the previous collimation or a loose element. Most likeley these will not be problems coming from RED I would guess. So, if the lenses are good when they leave RED, you should be okay Shawn.

The lens tech did say that very extreme temperature differences between collimation setting and shooting locations could cause a noticable focus shift, but someone shooting in those locations would most likely already be aware of those issues.

Hope that helps.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

I just checked with our lens guy to see what he had to say.

With transportation, the only things that could affect the collimation would be temperature variances, but that would only cause a difference of one line width in focusing, which is within tolerance.

The lens tech told me that the two main reasons that a lens would be out of collimation would be a mistake in the previous collimation or a loose element. Most likeley these will not be problems coming from RED I would guess. So, if the lenses are good when they leave RED, you should be okay Shawn.

The lens tech did say that very extreme temperature differences between collimation setting and shooting locations could cause a noticable focus shift, but someone shooting in those locations would most likely already be aware of those issues.

Hope that helps.

Thanks! That puts my mind at ease, provided that Red is setting them as they leave. Hopefully someone from Red will comment.

One more question for you Birns, if shooting in an extreme condition (desert or deep snow, both of which I want to shoot at). What's the best protocol? Let the lenses acclimate to the shooting condition first? I guess this is yet another advantage of Red vs film, if your focus changes you can observe it right then and there

 

[Birns and Sawyer]

If you let the acclimate, they should be okay, within a line width or so. Also, if they all travel together, and they were off by more than you're comfortable, then they should have all changed by the same amount and you could reset back focus to match the widest lens and you'd be okay.

Desert or deep snow aren't quite extreme enough to make a huge difference I don't think. I think the 'extreme' temperature difference would be climbing mount everest or somewhere that's 20-40 degrees below zero. But I'll check with the lens tech later today to make sure.

 

[chuck colburn]

I would expect any new lens delivered from Zeiss or Angenieux or Cooke would arrive in proper order. That is to say it shipped at factory spec. Now I would also film test any piece of equipment (camera, lens or whatever) before it was ever used on a production. Every time.

 

[Mitch Gross]

When any of these new lenses come through Abel for a Sale we completely check them. It is a rare event that there is anything wrong or out of spec, but stuff does happen. That's why we check.

 

[Brent Carter]

Just like RED as a whole has learned a lot over the past couple of years, so have we with lenses. I should think it goes without saying that we check each and every RPP - including putting each one on a lens projector at various distances. Our lens tech takes a considerable amount of time on each RED lens before it leaves our door. We take lens QC very seriously, period.

BC