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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Apple destroys MacBook Pro

Gavin Greenwalt said:
No we can't. Because this is how Apple has always made hardware decisions. Arbitrarily and without any sort of reason or sense. That's why I switched a LONG time ago and never looked back. I like having decent 3d cards within 10 years of their release. Just be thankful Apples are finally on Intel chips--running shake on PowerPC... ughhh.
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Amen to THAT!
 
Craig Schober said:
i'm still unclear as to the practical problems here. is anyone capturing to a hard drive array directly from a macbook pro? and unless you're editing multiple streams of uncompressed 4k (which no portable can currently do) why is such bandwidth necessary?
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Uh... look at it this way. The Macbook Pro gives us one firewire host. So that enables us to attach a single FW800 device at full speed, so let's say a RED Drive, CF reader, RED-RAM... Then how do we dump that data to something else that isn't 1/2 as fast on USB2? Ah, we put a firewire or SATA card into the ExpressCard slot. Oh, wait... Can't do that wit the new 15" MBP.

Why is such bandwidth necessary? Uh... Why wouldn't it be?

What about supporting other devices that aren't necessarily localized storage or supporting legacy PCMCIA devices?

Easy solution is to just bring a Windows notebook. But that's not always an option.

Kholi said:
Actually, you're right. And not just due to copyrights, etc, but instabilities and performance hits. So I take that back, I wouldn't recommend a "hackinmac" in an environment that demands stability. Which means you should just shell out for the real thing.
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That's true too, although that doesn't seem to be a valid argument in the eyes of most hackintosh proponents.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion... Those who felt the need to complain have done so, I've left feedback and emails to Apple. Those who need the ExpressCard slot understand the problem here. The small and agile indie is, in most situations, not going to see the problem. Or those who don't understand probably don't have much need for mobile back-up and inspection of RED or Sony EX footage and media and Apple-based clients breathing down their necks.
:beer:
 
Craig Schober said:
i'm still unclear as to the practical problems here. is anyone capturing to a hard drive array directly from a macbook pro? and unless you're editing multiple streams of uncompressed 4k (which no portable can currently do) why is such bandwidth necessary? i think this is just a case of some people who already have an investment in fast sata raids that don't want change but the industry (even the pro industry) is built upon change. even if the vocal minority thinks they're going backwards at the moment.
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Is this paragraph referring to the ExpressCard problem or the 1.5 Gb internal SATA issue?

If you are referring to the ExpressCard: Are you aware of the many purposes of an ExpressCard? I'm only asking because you are only referring to one of its many options.

If you are referring to 1.5Gb/sec internal bus: Then the argument is irrelevant due to not having any pertinence to external storage solutions.
 
Dumb people will always need a computer and Apple has become more prone to serve these people.

As we become smarter about computer tech we should find better alternatives. As it is their Mac Pro's become useless after 2 years, if you wish to upgrade parts to the latest and greatest it will cost you an arm and a leg because it's mac specific parts. Unless Apple can make their computers more affordable I don't see how they'll make it through the recession computer wise. This is an attempt to lower prices much like the iMac and now Macbook Pro's. iPhones always will fly off the shelf. Who wants to pay up the nose for an okay computer with last years computer parts. Dumb people.

Adobe software, and i7 looks more and more tempting. Although if you get a windows set-up with avid it will cost about the same as a Mac Pro with FCS.

These new "MacBook Pro" is the beginning of Pro's wondering what makes them Pro. If we simply stop buying into their traps maybe they will change. I highly doubt it due to the increase of Mac users in the past decade. Plus they look that much cooler than a PC.

It would be great if you could build your own mac, but they are all about control and will never happen. Looks like we are in a head lock. Damn bastards!
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Uh... look at it this way. The Macbook Pro gives us one firewire host. So that enables us to attach a single FW800 device at full speed, so let's say a RED Drive, CF reader, RED-RAM... Then how do we dump that data to something else that isn't 1/2 as fast on USB2? Ah, we put a firewire or SATA card into the ExpressCard slot. Oh, wait... Can't do that wit the new 15" MBP.

Why is such bandwidth necessary? Uh... Why wouldn't it be?

What about supporting other devices that aren't necessarily localized storage or supporting legacy PCMCIA devices?

Easy solution is to just bring a Windows notebook. But that's not always an option.



That's true too, although that doesn't seem to be a valid argument in the eyes of most hackintosh proponents.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion... Those who felt the need to complain have done so, I've left feedback and emails to Apple. Those who need the ExpressCard slot understand the problem here. The small and agile indie is, in most situations, not going to see the problem. Or those who don't understand probably don't have much need for mobile back-up and inspection of RED or Sony EX footage and media and Apple-based clients breathing down their necks.
:beer:
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All of the above. I'm just very surprised in general that eSata isn't an option but I guess, again, it is what it is.

And on Hackintosh proponents, agreed with again. I know I'll talk all day about one but when it comes down to recommending I'll flat out say "no, and I'm not helping you build one, either."

My FireWire 400 Ports still don't operate at full speed. Ridiculous.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Uh... look at it this way. The Macbook Pro gives us one firewire host. So that enables us to attach a single FW800 device at full speed, so let's say a RED Drive, CF reader, RED-RAM... Then how do we dump that data to something else that isn't 1/2 as fast on USB2? Ah, we put a firewire or SATA card into the ExpressCard slot. Oh, wait... Can't do that wit the new 15" MBP.
Click to expand...

Can't one attach external FW800 drives in series (the second plugs into the first which is attached to the computer). Not sure how much this slows things down but I always thought this was one the many great things about FW.
-Brian
 
bsnelson said:
Can't one attach external FW800 drives in series (the second plugs into the first which is attached to the computer). Not sure how much this slows things down but I always thought this was one the many great things about FW.
-Brian
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Sure you can. But almost every time I've done a RED One shoot without expansion cards in the expresscard slot somebody had to bring the drives/CF cards home and finish up the copying overnight. Simply because the bandwidth is not fast enough when you split the FW800 port.

The idea is to have a solution where, at the end of the shoot, all the camera gear goes back to the rental house, the drives with the copied footage goes to editorial and the camera crew goes home not too long after the rest of the crew.

Here's a short way of doing the math:
Multiply your file size with a minimum factor of 6. (RED Drive read =2, Minimum 2 copies = 2, Verification of copies = 2) Then divide that data on the bandwidth of your FW800 port. Let's say you shoot Redcode 36 and you are generating 250GB per camera per day of footage. That gives you a minimum of 1,5TB you need to push through your FW800 port per camera per day. That's about 6 hours IF your drives can saturate the bandwidth all the time. Add the time it takes to change 'the mags', check footage, etc. Then count backwards from when you think the first footage will be ready to copy and you have your estimated wrap time.

Now, once you shoot with Scarlet S35 with Redcode 80 or Scarlet FF35 with Redcode 100, you need to multiply that 6 + hour daily download time with a factor between 2 and 3. Now you are barely making call-time the next day! Hence why people here are rather pissed off about the new MacBook Pros since they've invested a fair amount of money and time in the Mac OSX platform.
 
People who really think that they'll be able to handle checksumming and backing up RC100+ on a laptop on a fast-moving shoot need to get out the calculator and stopwatch...

Unrelated, I know... just a word of warning for what is undoubtedly around the corner.
 
Brook Willard said:
People who really think that they'll be able to handle checksumming and backing up RC100+ on a laptop on a fast-moving shoot need to get out the calculator and stopwatch...

Unrelated, I know... just a word of warning for what is undoubtedly around the corner.
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Interesting. My question is: Why not?

Or do you mean just apple specific hardware.
 
Bandwidth is all. But then again, as connectivity options continue to mature I don't see it being a real problem. We don't even know what the new REDCODE numbers mean. REDCODE 100 doesn't necessarily mean 100MB/s. Or if it does, at what resolution and frame rate?

I agree with Brook in that a laptop isn't always the best solution for a DIT system and I often wonder about a lot of so-called DIT's who have no other system but a Macbook Pro or similar. OTOH, sometimes a laptop is the only viable option, depending on location and crew.

Future REDCODE formats on a laptop doesn't scare me. I just know that my current laptop probably won't handle them, or at least not well. I plan to buy both a new Windows and Mac laptop once quad-core mobile CPUs appear and whatever new connectivity options come along with them -- USB3, FW3200, ExpressCard 2.0, etc..
 
Quad Core Mobile CPUS are already here. Q9000's, 9100 and X9300's have been circulating for a little while.

Or are you talking about i7 Class Mobile Processors?

My new laptop replaced my desktop for this very reason. Now, how it'll stack up to true Quads and, then, those true quad stacked for an Octocore configuring, sure. But there aren't any Intel Branded Native Quads anyway. AMD's got it... but yuck, AMD.

As of tomorrow morning I'll be at the same specs as my desktop but in a 7lb form factor instead. Just gonna be waiting on a final component. I think it'll handle the current without a hiccup and beyond, and the future pretty well.

BUT, that's speculation. I wonder what those guys are testing the new REDCODE on?

Still think there's a long way to go before we even start tapping on the eSata's max bandwidth. Just have to buy hardware that's esata and Express equipped. That was my big reason for choosing the laptop in general, it had every connection someone needs on location.
 
acehole said:
This is why i predict (and have always predicted) that all you mac users will soon be crossing over to the dark side.. Where options are abundant!
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And the sad reality is that Apple will never know we are missing. They are selling too well in the consumer market these days to make computers for professional media people. I'm sure it's all a numbers game now and our numbers just don't add up!

It's sad because we are the ones that kept them in business at one time.

It sounds crazy but maybe Jim (RED) should work on a download - on-location - storage-preview solution for us all.
 
Kholi said:
Or are you talking about i7 Class Mobile Processors?
Click to expand...

Yes waiting for the new i7-based mobile quads that are due toward the end of this year.

Still think there's a long way to go before we even start tapping on the eSata's max bandwidth.
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Huh? Well, in laptop land that's mostly true due to the logistics of attaching large and fast disk systems to a laptop... And that ExpressCard 1.2 tops out at 2.5Gbps while current eSATA (SATA-II assumed) is 3Gbps. or roughtly 350MB/s. SATA 3.0 was approved about 5 months ago and is 6Gbps.
 
I was in my local mac store today. Plenty of the staff were moaning about the loss of Expresscard, and so were a few customers.

There may be some hope yet.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Yes waiting for the new i7-based mobile quads that are due toward the end of this year.



Huh? Well, in laptop land that's mostly true due to the logistics of attaching large and fast disk systems to a laptop... And that ExpressCard 1.2 tops out at 2.5Gbps while current eSATA (SATA-II assumed) is 3Gbps. or roughtly 350MB/s. SATA 3.0 was approved about 5 months ago and is 6Gbps.
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Well, yeah true. I forgot about RAID + SSD but most of the time that's not running through an eSata port right? Specifically talking eSata and Express Applications, for desktop and mobile computing, even a consistent 2.5Gbp/s (consistent meaning constant) is pretty rare.

Either way, you won't be getting near-to that securely with FW800 regardless so it just coincides with the need for intense mobile computing applications to include Express AND eSata ports, or two eSata ports.

P.S. I should have waited for 35nm Architecture to show up later this year, especially with mobile Quad Cores having the potential to go native instead of dual dye construction but... I just couldn't. Tear.

You are a better man.
 
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