I own a GH-1 and MKii and this is how RED can truly seal the deal

[Ariana]

Adding a half assed, half baked video mode with all sorts of artifacts is special alright.

Short bus special.

 

[Yannick Hagman]

Adding a half assed, half baked video mode with all sorts of artifacts is special alright.

Short bus special.

That so far nobody could deliver at this pricepoint.

 

[J Davis]

That so far nobody could deliver at this pricepoint.

you mean chose to deliver

 

[David Rasberry]

i don't think its fair to say the scarlet is outdated, but certainly as it stands right now it is becoming less impressive every day as newer, better, and cheaper cameras start emerging and the scarlet is still a ways a way. I can see how people may not feel its as groundbreaking anymore as when it was first announced. But the scarlet has the advantage of being designed as a cine camera and not just having a cine function and that can be seen in its codec and its framerate capabilities. I just wish it would come out already because i'm getting impatient and these new DSLR's are starting to sound better and better to me...

Based on the few compressed JPEG images I have seen from the 2/3" prototype, Scarlet is a very impressive camera. Far better resolved images than the VDSLRS which at best resolve maybe 400 visual line pairs vertically, the low end of HD. A fully resolved debayered image from Scarlet should comfortably exceed the vertical Nyquist limit of a 1080p frame, which is about 750 line pairs.

 

[Yannick Hagman]

you mean chose to deliver

:beer: Yes.

 

[David Rasberry]

I guess outdated was a poor word choice. I love Red. But Canon did something special with the 5D. Red needs to answer their calling.. We need a lightweight, portable camera that's cheap and awesome... All I'm sayin.. Jim, I know you're listening..

Why should RED compromise their products and philosophy to compete in the midrange consumer market with inferior products? If Canon comes out with a full blown larger than 2/3" sensor video camera in the XL series with a decent I frame codec for under $6k then there might be something to talk about.

 

[aaronbeach]

different markets... for now

different markets... for now

RED is a video system made for video people. Video people are correct to take interest in mkII and gh1 for their unique abilities at low prices - but they are not made for the video people (hence the complaints about artifacts etc..).

However, the video community should keep watching canon/panasonic because they could integrate the mount/system into an "actual" video camera.

The GH1 will probably be selling for about $600 a body by the end of the year and is already adaptable to 16mm c-mount/bolex lenses along with just about every other major lens mount in existence, it will be selling to the aprox. $1-2K budget (students) etc...

Given the move toward internet distribution of video/movies, the GH1 will probably play a large part in future "indie" film, whatever that becomes on the internet.

This new culture may not really care about artifacts and 3/4k raw video... but they will be video people

 

[aaronbeach]

also, note that within a month a 720p "large" sensor camera will exist that is half the size of the gh1, easily pocket-able with a pancake lens... this is definitely for a different type of video culture

artifacts aside - you can't stick scarlet in your back-pocket, but a "camera" with a sensor 4 times as large might fit. New CFast cards might support >100mbp/s within a year or two... the artifacts might not exist in a few years, in kid's back pockets.

 

[David Rasberry]

The VDSLRS are good choices for short form web videos on a budget. Compressed to 720p low bitrate codecs they look pretty good. They are good for photojournalists for short interviews and video clips. They are a big step up from handycams for students and indies willing to put up with the poor ergonomics and limited functionality for film making. They have their uses and their market space.
RED may overlap this market somewhat, but it is definitely a higher end solution. Scarlet 2/3" competes directly with the $12k and up professional production HD camera systems and the S35 and FF35 models have no direct competition at this point.

 

[Jack Kelly]

I agree with Kholi, the original poster.

Personally, I think RED were a bit over-ambitious with their DSMC modular idea and the complexity of developing this system has meant that they're in danger of missing their window for launching Scarlet. I think they should focus on a *single* Scarlet to address the HVX200+35mm adapter crowd (which is now morphing into the GH1/5DmkII crowd).

Large sensor; interchangeable lenses; built-in LCD/EVF with decent focus-assist features; REDCODE at 24,25,30,50 & 60fps; XLR audio inputs; video out. $5000. I'd buy one today.

 

[Kenneth Elkington]

also, note that within a month a 720p "large" sensor camera will exist that is half the size of the gh1, easily pocket-able with a pancake lens... this is definitely for a different type of video culture.

Is there a specific camera you're referring to, because the only camera that I know of fitting this description is the Sigma DP2 and it tops out at QVGA 30p.

 

[Kenneth Elkington]

I agree with Kholi, the original poster.

Personally, I think RED were a bit over-ambitious with their DSMC modular idea and the complexity of developing this system has meant that they're in danger of missing their window for launching Scarlet. I think they should focus on a *single* Scarlet to address the HVX200+35mm adapter crowd (which is now morphing into the GH1/5DmkII crowd).

Large sensor; interchangeable lenses; built-in LCD/EVF with decent focus-assist features; REDCODE at 24,25,30,50 & 60fps; XLR audio inputs; video out. $5000. I'd buy one today.

Barring the "large sensor" how doesn't this describe the 2/3 scarlet? I guess I just don't really get the fascination with a large sensor around here. Sure you don't have quite the same capability for a super-thin DOF as you do with s35, but if you're shooting wide-open at f/2 you can still get damn close.

 

[Jack Kelly]

Barring the "large sensor" how doesn't this describe the 2/3 scarlet?

Good point. Perhaps RED will release my perfect camera some time this year.

I guess I just don't really get the fascination with a large sensor around here.

I can't speak for other people; but for me shallow DoF would be a real advantage for a lot of my day-to-day work. A lot of my paid work consists of shooting interviews and at least 75% of the time I don't have any control over the location. Having the option to achieve really shallow DoF would be of great help.

Plus... personally... I just love the shallow DoF look. My first camera was a Pentax 35mm stills camera (my Dad's old camera) and it had one lens: 50mm f1.2 (or maybe 1.4, I can't remember, it was a while ago!). I loved that look, especially for portraits.

 

[Peter Hebert]

Vaporware...

Vaporware...

Only if the Scarlet existed...

It is a lot like a fairy... mythical at this point.

I could not have said it better - I'll probably end up buying a HD-DSLR that actually exists right now, despite the codec flaws and lower resolution, rather than wait for the Red folks to get around to releasing Scarlet. It'll be over 2 years from when they first announced the Scarlet concept to when it finally ships. I can make a bunch of cool films in the meantime. RED needs to have FIRM release dates, with final price points and specs, otherwise they might as well not even announce the product in my books. Otherwise it's just blowing hot air.

 

[Pascal Scheffers]

Hi Stephen,

1080p: 1920 * 1080 = 2,073,600 pixels
3K: 3072 * 1728 = 5,308,416 pixels

5,308,416 / 2,073,600 = 2.56 (I rounded up by 0.04 in my other post)

I'd have to agree with Peter Moretti.

Sensor resolution on this forum is usually referred to in one dimension only, probably because film scanners do this. They in turn do this, because film resolution historically doesn't have pixels. Just line pairs per millimeter (or inch. choose your poison).

So, on this forum, 3K has a 1.6 times resolution advantage over 1080p (3072/1920 if aspect is the same, or just sqrt(2.56) if they're not). The real gurus can correct me if I'm wrong. You have 2.56 times as many pixels, but that is not the same thing as 2.5 times the resolving power.

Now in consumer digcamland, where the megapixel war is still simmering, yes, the resolution is 2.6 times as high. Heck, they'd call it 3 times. I think a lot of people here would be more cautious here and just say 2.5, what with system losses and debayering which still has to happen, etc.

So, basically, I both agree and disagree with you. heh. :beer:

 

[David Rasberry]

I agree with Kholi, the original poster.

Personally, I think RED were a bit over-ambitious with their DSMC modular idea and the complexity of developing this system has meant that they're in danger of missing their window for launching Scarlet. I think they should focus on a *single* Scarlet to address the HVX200+35mm adapter crowd (which is now morphing into the GH1/5DmkII crowd).

Large sensor; interchangeable lenses; built-in LCD/EVF with decent focus-assist features; REDCODE at 24,25,30,50 & 60fps; XLR audio inputs; video out. $5000. I'd buy one today.

S35 covers those bases already. The higher price reflects a reasonable design/manufacturing cost delta for a robust digital cinema production camera as opposed to a consumer toy. It is not the same market.

 

[Kholi Hicks]

Barring the "large sensor" how doesn't this describe the 2/3 scarlet? I guess I just don't really get the fascination with a large sensor around here. Sure you don't have quite the same capability for a super-thin DOF as you do with s35, but if you're shooting wide-open at f/2 you can still get damn close.

There's nothing wrong with a 2/3" Sensor as far as DOF goes. But what about lowlight performance, etc etc? Remember, it's just ONE 2/3" Sensor, correct? How's the signal to noise ratio going to be?

Also, to say that S35mm has "super thin" DOF, that's what we've been seeing for several years in cinematic environments. Most of the time we're all shooting at a 2.8~4 split anyway, choosing wide-open apertures when the scene calls for it (low/no light, specific framing, etc).

What line-up is Scarlet competing with when it's got a 2/3" sensor? HPX500's? All well and good, but once you start competing with B4 Mount cameras, then you need to consider than they can all utilize automatic lenses, have installed user bases that expect and demand certain workflows, etc etc. The price won't matter at this point because they'll buy what can get the job done or what they're used to.

If not there, then RED, Genesis, F23? Is that what it's competing with? Then why only a 2/3" sensor at this stage in the game? Too small, too little, too late. And we already know that it's stated the Scarlet is not set to render RED obsolete. It's just not the same tool. So if not these larger 35mm Cinema Cameras then who?

Is it competing with the Prosumer Handheld arena? The HPX170's, EX-1's, etc etc? If so, then it certain trumps the other offerings out of the gate. But so does the MKii (image for image). A lot of us who invested years of time and money (which are basically the same thing) in 35mm Adapters are liquidating our long adapter rigs in favor of the MKii or GH-1. For the no-budget independent narrative, music video and commercial market these Prosumer offerings are now officially "too little for too much". Certainly, you've got on-board audio, tried and true compression schemes that can be cut in just about any NLE and other automatic fixed lensing, not to mention the option to strap a 35mm Adapter on... but weigh these against the cost of an MKii and the RETURNS of an MKii.

There's honestly no real contest. Just pick up a Zoom H4N for your audio and learn how to sync sound by slate. Learn how to pull focus or purchase an IS Canon Zoom.

So in the end, Scarlet's many forms end up competing with VDSLRs in the end, which are even cheaper than the prosumer offerings. And they're available NOW and still progressing as a technology. Even Samsung's going to be dropping their APS-C sized 4/3" mount DSLR soon and they're keeping secret about the specs. Who KNOWS what these guys are going to turn out?

If they've been watching Canon's moves, they could easily wreck everyone by offering a 1080/24P, 30P, 720/60P, 30P all AVC-HD/H264 wrapped at a high bitrate. Similar to how the MKii crunches his B-Frameless image and makes it look so damned good.

And about 1080P....

Someone else mentioned that 3k/4k isn't something that most people just trying to shoot something with a decent image would care too much about. I back that statement. A resolute 1080/24 image with little noise is a lot to start off with. 4:4:4? Sure! Hell, I'll take 4:2:2 to be honest with you. Wait, even 4:2:0 since the Mark II and GH-1 are about this, so I'm fine with it for narrative image acquisition.

It NEVER stopped people before the RED came out and made 4K accessible to the masses. A lot of the people here came from the HVX200 and got a LOT of work because of that camera. Yeah, we all knew that the HVX200 had the WORST HD image EVER, but that didn't stop our clients from loving the hell out of it. And it didn't stop them from paying you to work with it.

Next, the likely hood of getting a theatrical distribution is pretty much zero. Not because of the lack of named talent or money, but honestly most people dont' have anything on the burner worth watching in Standard Definition, High Definition or 4K just makes it that much more unbearable. If you EVER got theatrical distribution, not having shot in 4K will be the least of your worries and a 1080 derived from something like the MKii surely will not disappoint.

So we've got some people saying "MKii is just 720p..."-- which I completely disagree with, COMPLETELY-- and "It's just for web and music videos"... totally disagree with that too, but going forward with this paragraph... if/when Scarlet DOES get released, where do you think most of the footage is going to end up anyway?

Right here on the net. RED's been out for how long? How many features have been shot with it? And of that percentage, how many have made it to theaters? Hell, give me Blu Ray total/percentage.

Then give me a percentage for web-based content shot @ 4K. Nearly all of it ends up online anyway.

Am I saying that 4K and beyond from Scarlet will not be worth it? Hell no I'm not. Not that silly. I'm saying that as time progresses and major corporations that have plenty of money and resources to expend on the technology do just that, expend money and resources, they'll continue to inch closer and closer to what we no-money-types really want.

The MKii and GH-1 both really do begin to shatter the lines. The MKii more-so because of the 1080. Aliased as it may be, I know that only REDusers and DVXusers-- in general, people who know what to look for-- will be the only ones bothered by such things. The technical people.

I want a Scarlet! But the further along things get, the less I-- and several others-- can begin to justify the extra expense.

Again, these are just thoughts. Thanks to those who have replied in a mature fashion.

 

[Emanuel A.]

I agree with Kholi, the original poster.

Personally, I think RED were a bit over-ambitious with their DSMC modular idea and the complexity of developing this system has meant that they're in danger of missing their window for launching Scarlet. I think they should focus on a *single* Scarlet to address the HVX200+35mm adapter crowd (which is now morphing into the GH1/5DmkII crowd).

Large sensor; interchangeable lenses; built-in LCD/EVF with decent focus-assist features (...) I'd buy one today.

You've nailed it. 5D Mark II and GH1 are offering a substantial part of it for a small portion of the usual price.

 

[Kholi Hicks]

You've nailed it. 5D Mark II and GH1 are offering a substantial part of it for a small portion of the usual price.

Agreed. I didn't even see Jack's post. Dunno how I missed it but that's what it's all about.

It's very awesome that the team wants to give us the kitchen sink, I'd also be okay with most of it in exchange for a quicker release time and ONE body to choose from.

If they include a Full Frame sensor from the get-go, they can stay above the pack, offer Academy frame guides and a quick crop solution in REDCine. That way anyone wanting to remain with Academy Framing could do so, you could still use any glass you wanted and instead of having the camera do the hard work, it would be on the user's computing horsepower to rip the Academy Sized image out of the 2.5K or whatever it may be.

So you get the benefits (I think) of Full Frame SNR, Light Sensitivity and Resolving power and we could all just invest in one single body.

But I'll still take the S35!

 

[Emanuel A.]

(...) these Prosumer offerings are now officially "too little for too much". (...)

That's the idea.