Red Viewfinder

[Tony Brown]

As if its not bad enough having to judge contrast/colour/DoF/focus and much more without an optical VF, the electronic one I saw connected to RED was appalling. Vertical and horizontal 'stutter' ..... 'frame scroll dropout' or whatever you want to call it was atrocious... any tips?

Its beyond belief to me that anyone creating a serious camera from scratch chooses to eliminate the bridge between the Cinematographer and the image.

Shame - its like buying an Alfa Romeo with an automatic gearbox.....

 

[Rob Gardner]

I don't know who you are, but the two EVF's I own on my cameras work fine and always have. They work fine for judging contrast, color, DoF, focus and so on.

My tip would be look at a different one. If you own the one you are complaining about, contact Red.

Thanks for your sunny British attitude...

Robert Gardner

 

[Paul Hazlett]

best VF on the market...you should take a look at mine

 

[Bérenger Brillante]

Not the same problem, but I received mine two weeks ago, and notice some kind of "clipping" on my first shoot with it. It was very visible with redspace, less with raw.
Highlights were clipped, like solarized, very strange to work with...
Is it normal ?

 

[Brook Willard]

Sounds like the EVF is either broken, set to "synced" mode or Dark Detail is turned on at an inappropriate level for the subject material.

 

[Damien Molineaux]

Not the same problem, but I received mine two weeks ago, and notice some kind of "clipping" on my first shoot with it. It was very visible with redspace, less with raw.
Highlights were clipped, like solarized, very strange to work with...
Is it normal ?

Any chance you were shooting in cold conditions. This alas is the Achile's heel of the Red EVF, the images becomes solarized when it gets cold, and when it's too hot also I believe. If this is your problem, try heating it or keepiong it cool.

Cheers,
Damien

 

[David Wyatt]

Hi Tony,

The Red EVF is really not that bad - it's made by the former company Accuscene (who I believe Red bought out) and they have/had a pretty good reputation within the industry. There are far more dreadful Hi-Def viewfinders in the world than the Red's one, as I'm sure you're aware, and for $3,000 I don't think it's too bad at all. Sounds like you're more of a D21 kind of guy...if you could buy one :thumbsup:.

p.s. like others have said the stuttering you mention can appear worse depending how you've got the menu set up in the "EVF Refresh" section of the Monitor menu (was it set to "synced" or "fixed"?). Also what was the project frame rate (24 or 25 fps)?

 

[Tony Brown]

Hi Tony,
Sounds like you're more of a D21 kind of guy...if you could buy one :thumbsup:.

p.s. like others have said the stuttering you mention can appear worse depending how you've got the menu set up in the "EVF Refresh" section of the Monitor menu (was it set to "synced" or "fixed"?). Also what was the project frame rate (24 or 25 fps)?

D21 - no, not yet - I'm hanging onto film as long as possible!! I've a share in an Arri 3 kit and a 235.... thats enough investment for me

I was viewing the RED camera at a rental house and have since looked at another privately owned model - it was the same. We checked it set to synced and again set to fixed (didn't notice any difference) Frame rate was set to 25 f.p.s.

The movement on attached monitors was fine, in fact the on board was excellent, certainly wouldn't have trouble using it on rigs etc

GFIRob.....Thanks for the welcome- everybody as friendly as you here? The war finished some years back mate

It must tell you something GFIRob that no 35mm film camera ever came with an electronic VF and no top end stills camera either. To say they work 'fine' for judging the image is an admission in itself. There is no way I could determine the information I need to assess either through an electronic VF or from any monitor thats likely to be on set. An optical VF is a world apart as I'm sure you know. Though I accept that RED is exceptional value for what it is, I find it incredible that only the Arri and the late Dalsa were constructed with optical VF's, to me its the most essential part of a motion picture camera and determines choice of body for many like minded DoP's. The Moviecam VF was 'fine' but it was responsible for losing that camera more gigs than I could remember. The Arri 3 was 'fine' but that doesn't mean it was any good.

Maybe its 'fine' for judging these things on documentary work buts its inadequate for high end projects .......IMO

Here's a smiley just for you

Thanks for the responses all - If I find the cause I'll call back

 

[Cail Young]

There is no way I could determine the information I need to assess either through an electronic VF or from any monitor thats likely to be on set. An optical VF is a world apart as I'm sure you know.

I'm well aware that optical viewfinders are completely different beasts to electronic ones, but I am curious as to what information exactly you're unable to assess on an EVF versus an OVF.

 

[Rich Schaefer]

Tony welcome to the forum! Most of us are great

I am an owner/Dp I have 11 cameras. Notably a Moviecam compact, Arri III, Aaton, F900R, F900H....

Moving to shooting digital/Red takes some getting used to. There is a definite comfort/confidence issue to overcome. My best suggestion is testing before you are on set and have an experienced Red shooter or tech give you a hand. As a film shooter you have an advantage: You are used to exposing an image with a meter! You don't light off a monitor only! With the Red it is the same, for me it is the Red's RAW Histogram. In my opinion, it works much like Ansel's zone system, center the image/data on the collector format.

Relatively speaking the Red's EVF is good. its as good as my Sony $11,000 color finders. I hope it f#(king lasts longer than Sonys!!!! If you are not hand held then put a nice monitor on the camera and give yourself a break without the VFs. A Panasonic BT-LH 900 or the Red pro 7" would be good.

Honistly, I think Arri put in the optical VF just to help Film DPs and Ops transition to Digital. Evaluating a scene through a ground glass dose not get you a more accurate view, but a good monitor dose when shooting digital!


Good Luck to ya Mate!
Cheers,
Rich

 

[Rob Castiglione]

I would also like to chime in to say that there must be something wrong with your evf and you should have it checked out.

I have used a number of the years and the Red is far away the best I have ever used. Crystal clear, good resolution and contrast.

Perhaps it has something to do with your settings?

 

[sander kamp]

I think different people react different to flickering monitors. I have the EVF and hardly use it myself because I think it flickers (in every mode), but when renting the camera out nobody ever complained about it.

So if people say the RED EVF doesn't flicker they might be perfectly right, meaning that it doesn't flicker for them, but it might for you.

If you are the kind of person like me who doesn't like CRT monitors because of the flickering but can happily stare at a LCD than the RED EVF might just not be something for you.

BTW: I had a look at the viewfinder of a D21 one time and was not impressed. I guess I am not a film guy but I don't know what's so special about a optical viewfinder.

 

[Mark Pedersen]

As if its not bad enough having to judge contrast/colour/DoF/focus and much more without an optical VF, the electronic one I saw connected to RED was appalling. Vertical and horizontal 'stutter' ..... 'frame scroll dropout' or whatever you want to call it was atrocious... any tips?

Its beyond belief to me that anyone creating a serious camera from scratch chooses to eliminate the bridge between the Cinematographer and the image.

Shame - its like buying an Alfa Romeo with an automatic gearbox.....

Uhh.. whom among you who knows cars would want an Alpha?? You have to be a complete romantic without a care about technical performance. Says a lot really

But here's to romance! I had a Triumph TR6 for years.... piece of shit but many a fond memory for its English quirks

M

 

[Stuart English]

Red evf

Red evf

Yeah that TR6 really was.

However if you find the stutter visible in the EVF when you are shooting 24 / 25 fps objectionable, give OPEN GATE a try.

 

[Paul Leeming]

Might be the rainbow scintillation that some people see also that is disturbing you. Doesn't bother me at all as I don't really see it but my compatriot does and has a hard time with it occasionally. This is a trait of the EVF so if your are perceptive to it then try the Pro LCD as the next best option.

HTH

Paul

 

[Tony Brown]

I'm well aware that optical viewfinders are completely different beasts to electronic ones, but I am curious as to what information exactly you're unable to assess on an EVF versus an OVF.

Smoke density/swirl, artist eyelines in wide shots, shadow/highlight detail, lamp flicker when on dimmers, HMI edge flicker, flicker on non stable power supplies, paper cups .... I feel the same way about rangefinder stills cameras. I have a Leica MP, but because I’m not seeing the actual image I hate it……Been using it for several years (only camera I can use the Noctilux on) and never got used to it.

The VF was also maxed to 1:1.78 and so there was no warning that anything was about to encroach into the picture area (again, like the stutter this might be a setting issue).

Hi Rich – that’s quite a collection. The addition of digital cameras to my choice of shooting method is great, I’ve no worries whatsoever in that respect. My reservations are not based on fear of the unknown or change, but genuine opinion based on initial observations. I wont be investing in a RED purely because I believe it to be the domain of the rental houses who are struggling enough as it is. The kit I bought was acquired with considerable regret, though its led ultimately to a very strong relationship with a particular rental house which is to be admired as I have, without question trodden on toes. Owning filters and odds and sods is one thing, but I do worry for the future of some of the better rental houses due to the trend of technicians owning more and more kit.

Sander & Paul….. so its not just a setting issue then?? I wish I could convey how bad the two VF’s I’ve seen were (one from a rental house the other from a well respected DIT who owns 4 RED’s) It was difficult to tolerate even for a few seconds never mind 16 hours on a tough shoot……

Mark….Lucas fuel injection was never a selling point.

Love my Alfa (most reliable car I ever had BTW). Love my KTM more…..

 

[sander kamp]

Sander & Paul….. so its not just a setting issue then?? I wish I could convey how bad the two VF’s I’ve seen were (one from a rental house the other from a well respected DIT who owns 4 RED’s) It was difficult to tolerate even for a few seconds never mind 16 hours on a tough shoot……

It COULD be a setting. Hard to tell from here what you have been seeing. If it is stutter when panning than 'open gate' helps. If highlights are turned gray and the image looks like solarized then turning of 'dark detail' helps. But if the image flickers even without moving the camera and you see rainbows when you move your eyes around the image (like I do) then there's nothing you can do.

 

[Peter Strietmann]

Hi Tony,

I loved my Triumph TR6 too. But it had only two wheels. Check the gas fill up the oil.

I have shot with practically all high end electronic view finders and find the Red's to be far superior to any other and after reading that you experienced poor images on different cameras thereby eliminating the variables, leads me to believe you are perceiving something my middle age eyes don't.

I'm a big fan of the D20 and D21 due to the optical view finder.

I personally would love to see a hybrid viewfinder that would be of optical origin and also show data in the look around. I know this would be a large mountain to climb but just a few years ago a 4k mountain was summited.

Best, Peter

 

[David Wyatt]

However if you find the stutter visible in the EVF when you are shooting 24 / 25 fps objectionable, give OPEN GATE a try.

Hi Tony,

Definitely give Stuart's above suggestion a go - I remember there's definitely one setting which vastly improves stutter (you've tried "synced" & "fixed" already, right?). There's also another setting that might be of interest to you called "dark detail" which determines how much information you can see in the shadows (default is set to 1%).

In terms of all the other things you mentioned it seems you really hanker after an optical viewfinder (hence my D21 suggestion...although they're for rental only of course), so no EVF is really going to match that, but they do have their own advantages too, which may or may not appeal to you. I don't know whether you've also checked out other cameras EVFs but I think if you're going to describe the Red EVF as a dog then you have to lump in just about every other EVF out there too :thumbsup:

Incidentally I've noticed lamp flicker using the Red EVF before so I don't think there's too much of a problem there. There should also be a look around outside your frame like you'd get with a film camera (not sure how your menus were set up though).

p.s. I don't know if it would be of any interest to you but P+S Technik make a product for using optical viewfinders on electronic cameras like the SI-2K (as with everything it has its pros & cons):

http://www.pstechnik.de/en/optics-ims-ovf.php

 

[Tony Brown]

Thanks David....very helpful

I'll now add judging focus splits and whether a net is visible to my list (