On Set Data Support

[Kris Anderson]

Hi all.

I am planning the next 12 months of business and have noticed lately that a few clients have been asking about shooting RED and how the data is managed on set and who does this sort of thing.

Looking down the track at expanding my business into this area (as it will also help feed the edit suites) can anyone advise on what I would need to provide for this to be worthwhile? I'm not just talking gear, but client service?

What are the key elements that make a good Data Wrangling service? What have you experienced so far and what would you like to see in the future? From playback to FTP uploads to edit prep... I want to hear it all.

Thanks in advance.

 

[gbalaji]

Data wrangling is one piece of cake!

Data wrangling is one piece of cake!

Hi all.

I am planning the next 12 months of business and have noticed lately that a few clients have been asking about shooting RED and how the data is managed on set and who does this sort of thing.

Looking down the track at expanding my business into this area (as it will also help feed the edit suites) can anyone advise on what I would need to provide for this to be worthwhile? I'm not just talking gear, but client service?

What are the key elements that make a good Data Wrangling service? What have you experienced so far and what would you like to see in the future? From playback to FTP uploads to edit prep... I want to hear it all.

Thanks in advance.

Kris,

Digital Cinema Camera management is not just copying and storing data out of camera in safe and secure place and it shouldn't be considered as add on to feeding your edit suite. Its a new kind of expertise which is developing and sooner or later there will be a special position in feature films for people who are so called DIT nowadays.

Digital Cinema Cameras involved completing pre-planning of what would be the workflow, camera of choice, shooting locations, how well the scenes are being shot including the lighting, make-up and how it reacts to digital cinema camera and so on. It involves expertise in both Post-production like Edit, VFX, Compositing, VFX supervision to On shoot expertise and knowedge in Cinematography, lighting etc.

I would strongly suggest you acquire knowledge in these area and Data wrangling is one piece of cake what you are talking about.

I believe you understand the need of knowledge for working on Digital Cinema cameras like Red One, SI2K, Phantom HD, Sony CineAlta, Panvision Genesis, ARRI D21 etc., Each follows their own set of camera raw recording technologies, Digital sensor capabilities, post-production workflows and on camera operations etc.

I appreciate your inclination to learn and acquire the new medium. Try to have in-depth knowledge on above said and wish you all the best.

 

[Kris Anderson]

ok...

I have 15 years as an editor working on high end TVC's, Documentaries and Features (though my role in the features was small, there were a few very high profile and genre defining films that I got to be involved in). I have worked with a few 'name' DP's and Directors during this time. One facility I worked for had state of the art DI suites and were early adopters of the technology. More recently I have struck out on my own and am running a small, growing edit facility (4 seats) as well as post managing for various clients.

I understand the workflow very well and am part of it daily.

I am trying to fill a need for my clients and am looking for any info that might help me do that more effectively. I have a small understanding of the RED workflow and am actively pursuing learning opportunities to add value to my client services, with the ultimate end being that I can offer a reliable data supervision service. In the immediate short term though, with more RED based shoots coming along it is in my best interests to make sure I have, at the very least, enough knowledge to make sure a RED based edit makes it smoothly through my facility. I am not especially interested in the other makes of Digital Cinema camera's, just RED.

I appreciate your honest reply, but please do not confuse my short tenure on the RED boards for professional inexperience.

 

[gbalaji]

ok...

I have 15 years as an editor working on high end TVC's, Documentaries and Features (though my role in the features was small, there were a few very high profile and genre defining films that I got to be involved in). I have worked with a few 'name' DP's and Directors during this time. One facility I worked for had state of the art DI suites and were early adopters of the technology. More recently I have struck out on my own and am running a small, growing edit facility (4 seats) as well as post managing for various clients.

I understand the workflow very well and am part of it daily.

I am trying to fill a need for my clients and am looking for any info that might help me do that more effectively. I have a small understanding of the RED workflow and am actively pursuing learning opportunities to add value to my client services, with the ultimate end being that I can offer a reliable data supervision service. In the immediate short term though, with more RED based shoots coming along it is in my best interests to make sure I have, at the very least, enough knowledge to make sure a RED based edit makes it smoothly through my facility. I am not especially interested in the other makes of Digital Cinema camera's, just RED.

I appreciate your honest reply, but please do not confuse my short tenure on the RED boards for professional inexperience.

Kris,

I believe with your domain expertise, you can be ideal candidate. For that I believe you can enroll FXPHD's red courses (http://fxphd.com/) which may help you to pursue your journey either long or short successfully.

 

[mikeburton]

If you had a very specific question I'm sure people would be happy to answer. But a blanket 'tell me everything' thread is asking a little much especially now since there are courses 'Reducation' and fxphd.com courses. Not to mention, usually when someone wants to know everything they hire me or another tech as a consultant. I would suggest doing some thumbing through these boards to get the basics down then ask specifics or hire a local data tech to come in for a few hours etc and give you the basics.

 

[Brook Willard]

 

[Morning Glory]

Let's lose this term altogether

Let's lose this term altogether

I'm not sure who started it, but I propose we put an end to it's use right now. It's inaccurate an in adequate to describe the new position(s) required on a digital cinema production. I mean really, a data wrangler?? If you want someone to solely deal with copying the information and sending it off to editorial, a digital loader sounds more appropriate, and respectful. If you want camera tech support, pre to post worflow support, timing of dailies and generally dupporting the DP's vision in addition to managing the Digineg, well, that title is still in flux. My local, 667, has created a new position for digital Cinema, a DMT, or Data Management Technician. I like the title, as before I used DIT knowing it was not completely accurate but would be sufficient in the interim. There has also been another term floating around these boards, a DpE, sounds like it has some promise. It's a difficult position to pin down in a title without sounding a bit vague and generic. As I said before I like DMT, it describes it well enough as most terms proposed and the acronym rolls off the tongue in a pleasing manner.

 

[Casey Green]

I agree - Data Wrangler is not accurate and should not be used.

DIT is also a term for a position that existed BEFORE cine cameras captured digital files. It was (and still is) the job of the Digital Imaging Technician to work with live signals.

A good example of this would be on a multi-camera HD sit-com where this person matches ("paints") Cameras (sets looks) by adjusting color temperature, saturation, gain, gamma, contrast, brightness, as well as setting up proper sync, genlock, timecode, and calibrating on-set monitors.

As digital Cameras added the ability to record to file-based systems, the term DIT sometimes was used since there wasn't another category yet.

Depending on the production, the person transferring and logging files from the Camera may also have many other responsibilities.

I've worked on projects where this included being the Camera Tech (basically a 2nd AC of sorts) and had to know the complete Camera Menu system. There are times when the DP and/or ACs rely on your help to evaluate proper exposure, check focus, help set up monitoring, timecode, audio - you name it... and other times where all that is required is data backup. Also, some productions are asking for playback (Video Assist) of the transfered clips straight from the Data Capture station. You can see how on Union shows, this can get very confusing as to who (which Local) should have jurisdiction over this work.

The way I look at it (on Union shows) is that if you are adjusting live signal settings on the Camera (painting the image), this is a job of the DIT (600). If you are at all playing back Clips on set (sending out a feed to the Director at "Video Village" or even just scrubbing through them on your local Computer monitor for the DP) this is Video Assist and under the jurisdiction of the the 695 Sound/Video Local. And finally, if you are just copying files, this has not been covered in the CBAs yet, so technically, either Union should be able to do it.

Right now, all of this is being re-evaluated by the Locals, since many times you need the same person to be able to do many of these functions. I believe the Local 695 is in the best position to continue this because these Video and Sound Engineers have been doing this type of work for many many years and have the background and skillsets already.
For years, shows have had the need to capture video digitally and immediately turn it around for playback within the scene. For example, on countless shows, the Camera Dept will record Video surveillance onto prosumer digital Cameras (such as HVX-200) and will give the Video Dept the footage to backup and later playback within a scene onto a video monitor. And sound has been dealing with digital files for a long long time. The Engineers in this Union already have the experience and skillsets doing this work... not to mention that any form of off-Camera playback is under their Local's jurisdiction.

The job of Data Capture is not an entry level position, such as a Film Loader (or Digital Loader) and it does not offer a path towards becoming a Camera Operator, as many who are Film Loaders start out as to get experience. It requires years of experience with Computer operating systems, File recovery, RAID setups, expertise with the given Camera's menus and functions, Electrical (UPS setup and maintenance, proper use of location electrical setup, avoidance of ground loops, etc.), Multiple Analogue and Digital Video formats, Sound, Audio and Timecode understanding, Video Monitoring calibration and setup experience, various cables and connectors, knowledge of photography and cinematography, exposure, RAW and compressed formats, grading and editing software, backup and logging software, and on-set etiquette / presence. (This last one being extremely important as well.) If you are the best technician, but don't know how to act on set or speak with a DP or Director or Client, you won't continue to work. Proper set-etiquette often is something that can not be fully taught. You must realize the big picture and be able to work under pressure, and go with the flow of production, knowing when the right time is to discuss problems and how. Often, the DP may rely heavily on your skills to help with proper exposure or to work out an issue with the Camera. You may have to juggle many jobs - perhaps be backing up content, while looking at a 1:1 zoom of a requested clip for checking focus, then copying a file to send to someone doing on-set compositing, while reformatting a new card or changing settings on the Camera, such as resolution, framerate, shutter speed, frameguides, etc.

Of course, there may be gigs that only require a very basic need for off loading the data and logging it, but I've found these to be rare, especially once the production actually gets going.

Also, your setup needs to be secure, and mobile, since many jobs are on location or move around on each setup. Again, depending on the type of production, you may need to put some thought into designing a good mobile Data Capture Cart.

I just wanted to chime in here, because people need to realize that this is not an entry level position. It is VITAL to the project's integrity and should be considered a top priority both in planning properly and in budget. I've heard nightmare stories of people who tried to get by with a guy with a laptop, and external USB drive, and a folding table.

Don't let that be you.

As for the name, I think Data Capture Tech (DCT) works very well.

 

[Curran Giddens]

As for the name, I think Data Capture Tech (DCT) works very well.

I like the name Data Capture Tech. But I also like Data Management Tech. Or maybe I just like the acronym (DMT). :aureola:

 

[Kris Anderson]

Thanks for all the replies. I think my area of interest (based on the replies to date) is for Loader or Management. Taking the data and distributing it after the fact. I don't think it's appropriate for me to be messing with a DP's vision or camera. I'll steer clear of the black arts and stick to the science.

I guess, what it comes down to is, what makes a production hire a Loader/Manager in the first place (Data based shoot, ok, got that) and then what performance criteria will ensure happy clients and smooth production?

Apologies for the 'Wrangler' title. I just see it everywhere.

 

[Shawn Booth]

Sorry Kris, I'm hi-jacking for a second...

Why not keep things simple? I don't see why a loader can't become an off-loader when working on digital shows. This person can take mags, copy,verify and deliver to the assistant editor/editorial/production.

As far as looks and dailies...

 

[Kris Anderson]

Totally... that's what I'm looking to do, as per the requests I've had.

 

[hoylecd]

I also believe Digital Loader is an appropriate title. I created a thread discussing why it's wrong to use DIT to describe this position.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29411&highlight=digital+loader

Since a Loader already exists on film productions, using the title of Digital Loader fits easily into the already existing hierarchy. It allows everyone who's worked with film to quickly understand what you do. And this position should not be only for backing up data (which is still obviously the most important aspect), but should also include quality checking footage, creating dailies, syncing sound, and being intently involved with post. When you include all of these responsibilities, the position of Digital Loader goes from preferred to essential. While I would be fine with Digital Management Tech, or Digital Asset Manager, I still think Digital Loader will be the easiest for the movie making community as a whole to accept and understand.

 

[Casey Green]

I'm sorry, but I feel the points you listed make for a poor argument...

Since a Loader already exists on film productions, using the title of Digital Loader fits easily into the already existing hierarchy. It allows everyone who's worked with film to quickly understand what you do.

I don't see how this makes sense. The term Digital Loader implies that the job has stayed the same, but just is now working with digital media rather than film. While working with digital media is obviously true, the job qualifications, responsibilities, and career path are COMPLETELY different... as you even go on to admit...

And this position should not be only for backing up data (which is still obviously the most important aspect), but should also include quality checking footage, creating dailies, syncing sound, and being intently involved with post. When you include all of these responsibilities, the position of Digital Loader goes from preferred to essential. While I would be fine with Digital Management Tech, or Digital Asset Manager, I still think Digital Loader will be the easiest for the movie making community as a whole to accept and understand.

I fail to see how this is anything like the entry level position of Film Loader. And it certainly does not contribute to less confusion. If anything, the term is misleading, and implies the position to be entry level, rather than critical to the process. (not to say that every position isn't very important)

On simple productions, I can see how this way of thinking makes sense, but you have to keep in mind that Union shows consisting of multiple Cameras, big budgets and top DPs will expect much more than dragging and dropping files from one drive to another. And all of that other work (which I listed in my previous post) needs to fall under the title of something much more than loader.

I'm sticking with Data Capture Tech or Engineer. I feel it makes the most sense and covers the right areas of job description.

 

[Noah Richoz]

The DIT/Digital Loader/Data Capture Tech etc are all titles that are not the same on every RED job. For example i'm working on a series right now (says DIT on the call sheet and in my union IATSE 669) and the main tasks of my job are the following:
Transfer all CF and RED drives, one copy to VFX, one to editorial, two on set backups.
Spot check all footage.
Render out 1K for editorial.
Create LUT's for our DP.
Back up to RAID and LTO.
Troubleshoot and be the general RED expert.

I'd personally say this is a DIT position. If I were not creating LUT's and just backing up footage that title may change.
In the end, call me what you want I don't really care about the actual title...as long as the cheque clears

 

[Morning Glory]

Checks clear

Checks clear

And don't forget to check if your cheque clears.

 

[Noah Richoz]

And don't forget to check if your cheque clears.

HA! I'm very S-M-R-T when it comes to spelling and grammer:thumbsup:

 

[ericyoung]

...I'd personally say this is a DIT position. If I were not creating LUT's and just backing up footage that title may change.
In the end, call me what you want I don't really care about the actual title...as long as the cheque clears

Except your job title may affect the size of that cheque!! :beer:

 

[David Wyatt]

Hi all.

I am planning the next 12 months of business and have noticed lately that a few clients have been asking about shooting RED and how the data is managed on set and who does this sort of thing.

Looking down the track at expanding my business into this area (as it will also help feed the edit suites) can anyone advise on what I would need to provide for this to be worthwhile? I'm not just talking gear, but client service?

What are the key elements that make a good Data Wrangling service? What have you experienced so far and what would you like to see in the future? From playback to FTP uploads to edit prep... I want to hear it all.

Thanks in advance.

http://www.4klondon.com/dit.html

 

[Kris Anderson]

Thanks David.