The Day of Understatements... (RED primes)

[Shawn Nelson]

I wonder what the final $ will be? My guess is $19,000 for a 5 lens set. I also guess that the 18mm will be between $5-6,000, so putting a full 6 lenses right around $25,000, a bargain based on what others have been saying..

My guess is $15,995 for the 5 lens set then $4995 for the 18mm

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Well, anyone looking for me on Monday night can probably find me in the Casino, literally putting the $20 I'll have in my pocket (that's all I allow myself to carry in a casino) on Red at the Roulette table.

That is hilarious.

As for making the looks afterwards in post. I'm a great believer in making looks in post and embrace it, but believe me that what I do in camera you can not recreate 100%. You can try, but it will never be the same. I've had the best of the best trying a lot of times and it's simply just not the same.

Recently I sat at "The Mill" in London with one of the best graders there and forced him to grade to what my off line quicktime looked like - because it gave a filmic feel. We basically spent hours grading our RED material to that so it would look less digital then it was. Now that was when (for many) it already looked very filmic, because of old anamorphic lenses, filtration in camera, haze as atmosphere and flaring (to milk) in the lens. None of those effects could have been 100% successfully recreated. You could definitely make them but they would never look the same.

I believe that, and again, too much grading can get very expensive. Personally, however, I know I will be happy if I can get a nice film look out of them in every possible shooting situation. I highly doubt that won't be achievable, by myself.

I love think that while the future says SO much will be done in post, people with the film style knowledge to be able to do so much in production will never go undervalued. Sometimes you need dailies to look good, sometimes you can't pay for too much post and a stocking would create all the magic you need... hiring a guy that can pull rabbits out of hats will never get old, and the best will always be to have both.

It will be so awesome though to be able to take your footage in any direction at any point, as the story and material ask for it. Of course so much of this falls on Red Code, and Jim might come in and tell me to try to relax again... but in my defense it is his fault I sound like a kid on a massive sugar rush half the time.

Remember when Cine Altas and Varicams where the shizzle? And we were so exited about DVX's? :rofl:

 

[Andrew M.]

Recently I sat at "The Mill" in London with one of the best graders there and forced him to grade to what my off line quicktime looked like - because it gave a filmic feel. We basically spent hours grading our RED material to that so it would look less digital then it was. Now that was when (for many) it already looked very filmic, because of old anamorphic lenses, filtration in camera, haze as atmosphere and flaring (to milk) in the lens. None of those effects could have been 100% successfully recreated. You could definitely make them but they would never look the same.

Yes, you are right, to change the MP look to feel and look like COOKE S4 in post is a challenge. It will never be the same for the professional eye.
Like, it is very difficult to simulate vinyl record player and tube based amplifier, that is why Graeme still has the one.
But we are very close to do it with 196 audio sampling rate and quality of the current audio equipment.
Same with picture, once we will have plenty of safety margin in terms of image resolution, DR and color accuracy we will be able to get very close to simulate the legacy equipment.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I just want to say that I truly believe that the RPP's are going to be the best choice out there when it comes to best lenses for best price.

I can't compare them to MP's or any other lens before I see them myself, but i have no doubts that Jim wants to kick ass with these lenses.

BUT to think that lens projection is "the test" for lenses against each other is simply fooling yourself.

So when it starts to become the MP killer they are only MP killers because they're more affordable. Let's face it most of us can't afford MP's in the first place. As for production that can afford MP's? Will they stop and say no lets have RRP's instead because they're a lot better then the MP's in every way?

They will if the character of the MP's are more interesting - giving a look that suits they're needs more. OR IF THE RRP's are better or in a way smaller. From what it seems they're close to the design and size of COOKE S4, which means that they're quite big and therefor smaller size will not be a contender (MP's are big and fairly heavy). As for breathing I can't say but the MP's are amazing so it's a lot to try to beat - so will that be a killer? Rest of mechanics etc - well the gears on MP's are SMOOTH. I think that mechanics of RPP's will be GOOD, but will they be as good so they're a killer?

IMO RPP's will be killer lenses - because they will be REALLY F**ING BAD ASS lenses. BUT I doubt they will be the same as MP's - but understand that I "think" that the difference will be like comparing a Porsche to a Ferrari - Who needs a Ferrari anyway? My answer is only the ones who can truly drive it. Or the ones who "foolishly" can afford it.

As for the other primes here's my summary

Ultra Prime killer - Well the ones coming out are not as small and if they are the mechanics are not up to same (as far as I see it). The german lenses seem to barrel and the Zeiss ones have dreadful specs on their T-stops. So if you want "small" with best mechanics these are still the ones to go with.

Cooke S4 killer - Hard to say. I'm a S4 fan so it's hard for me to be objective here, but I do think that RRP's can be contenders here, but not any of the other lenses.

Super speed killers - IMO in seems that the other lenses on the market will and will not be killers - because of speed and mechanics and size. If you want small lenses these are the way to go. Yes they do go soft opened up but for me that's nice characteristics.


ALL AND ALL - My bet is on RED and the Pro Primes they look like they're most bang for the buck and they seem to be true Cine lenses. I have all respect for them but I don't think they will kick MP's ass.

 

[Jannard]

Hey Jim. Would you say that your new RED primes are better wide open than the Master Primes are wide open?

I'm not going to make any claims relative to the competition... I'll let those that see the side by side draw the conclusions...

Jim

 

[Deanan]

The coating technology and experience that comes with Jim's Oakley history is super amazing stuff. It's definitely some of the most advanced technology for coatings and way more evolved than some other lens companies out there.

I'm putting all my Leica and Mamiya gear up on ebay after NAB after seeing these lenses.

 

[Jannard]

I just want to say that I truly believe that the RPP's are going to be the best choice out there when it comes to best lenses for best price.

I can't compare them to MP's or any other lens before I see them myself, but i have no doubts that Jim wants to kick ass with these lenses.

BUT to think that lens projection is "the test" for lenses against each other is simply fooling yourself.

So when it starts to become the MP killer they are only MP killers because they're more affordable. Let's face it most of us can't afford MP's in the first place. As for production that can afford MP's? Will they stop and say no lets have RRP's instead because they're a lot better then the MP's in every way?

They will if the character of the MP's are more interesting - giving a look that suits they're needs more. OR IF THE RRP's are better or in a way smaller. From what it seems they're close to the design and size of COOKE S4, which means that they're quite big and therefor smaller size will not be a contender (MP's are big and fairly heavy). As for breathing I can't say but the MP's are amazing so it's a lot to try to beat - so will that be a killer? Rest of mechanics etc - well the gears on MP's are SMOOTH. I think that mechanics of RPP's will be GOOD, but will they be as good so they're a killer?

IMO RPP's will be killer lenses - because they will be REALLY F**ING BAD ASS lenses. BUT I doubt they will be the same as MP's - but understand that I "think" that the difference will be like comparing a Porsche to a Ferrari - Who needs a Ferrari anyway? My answer is only the ones who can truly drive it. Or the ones who "foolishly" can afford it.

As for the other primes here's my summary

Ultra Prime killer - Well the ones coming out are not as small and if they are the mechanics are not up to same (as far as I see it). The german lenses seem to barrel and the Zeiss ones have dreadful specs on their T-stops. So if you want "small" with best mechanics these are still the ones to go with.

Cooke S4 killer - Hard to say. I'm a S4 fan so it's hard for me to be objective here, but I do think that RRP's can be contenders here, but not any of the other lenses.

Super speed killers - IMO in seems that the other lenses on the market will and will not be killers - because of speed and mechanics and size. If you want small lenses these are the way to go. Yes they do go soft opened up but for me that's nice characteristics.


ALL AND ALL - My bet is on RED and the Pro Primes they look like they're most bang for the buck and they seem to be true Cine lenses. I have all respect for them but I don't think they will kick MP's ass.

You have an interesting point of view. I just think that those that have actually seen the RPPs might disagree with some of your assumptions.

Can wait for you to see these in person. The RPPs speak for themselves. I'd be curious to see if you don't change some of your preconceived notions...

Jim

 

[Mike Prevette]

Can we just get some more lens porn please?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hey Jim. Would you say that your new RED primes are better wide open than the Master Primes are wide open?

New RED Pro Primes a.k.a RPPs are (mostly) at T1.8 and MPs are all at T1.3.

And you cannot equally compare them because the speed of T1.3 is faster than T1.8.

That's all about the comparison.

The coating technology and experience that comes with Jim's Oakley history is super amazing stuff. It's definitely some of the most advanced technology for coatings and way more evolved than some other lens companies out there.

I'm putting all my Leica and Mamiya gear up on ebay after NAB after seeing these lenses.

And also the lens speed is not all about coating(s) and with today's lens technology is more about how you can "deal" with

"floating" aspherical elements (if you use them) to get under control speed, MTF (sharpness), vignetting (light falloff) and CA (chromatic aberration) across all apertures.

 

[Julio Quintana]

I'm not going to make any claims relative to the competition... I'll let those that see the side by side draw the conclusions...

Jim

I completely understand that. But your criticism of the Master Primes implies that the RED primes are sharper wide open then the MP's. That would be pretty fantastic. For those of us who can't make it to NAB, could you confirm that?

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I'm a S4 fan so it's hard for me to be objective here, but I do think that RRP's can be contenders here, but not any of the other lenses.

I was a fan of S4's before I knew it was the lenses that looked like that, so I have tremendous respect for your opinion, and in my humble understanding of cinematography I agree with you in 99% of what you've said.

Two things though:

1. Red blew us away with R1, Jim is still running the company.

2. Cost is part of the equation.

If 90% of what Jim, Mark and Peter are saying about the RPP's then they will be MP killers. SO many productions will rent these over MP's. We'll probably even see a few really big budgets with MP loving DP's using them. That will be gargantual sign if it happens. Even it if only happens every so often. That aside, 90% of a MP is 100% for 90% of the audience. Producers will love these.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Give me a lens that has NO anomalies, is wicked sharp, geometrically correct, no vignetting, and incredibly great coatings. If I want to create an anomaly, I'll do it in post... what I don't want is to pay a lot of money for a lens "with character" because I know what that really means.

Jim

Not sure what you want to say here Jim? But I do agree that I don't want to pay A LOT of money for lenses with a lot of anomaly.

As for Cooke S4. I would choose it because it has a warmer tint then an Ultra prime. Something that I find more pleasing for the skin tones. Now this is of course subjective and is highly my preference, but it's shared by others. Now you can argue and say that this is something that shouldn't be there but I believe that's the soul of Cooke S4's.

As for coating - there's a reason why we sometimes choose to shot with old lenses or even uncoated lenses. It's to give us an effect that is not 100% achievable in post. Would I go out and buy uncoated lenses as my only lens set? Of course not! But I would and have bought lenses that gives me character I really like. As I said I own MP's and I think they're fantastic lenses but I also feel that they can sometimes be a little to "clean". A perfect example is a friend of mine who went out as DP with MP's. On set the director wants to have flares in camera - they fought so hard trying to flare those MP's without success. For this job he should have taken out something else.

When I say characteristics I'm not talking about your lenses, because I can't speak for them. I'm simply saying that I a lot of the times prefer lenses that has flaws because they breathe live into what I shoot.

I'm not suggesting to try to create lenses with flaws?

 

[Jannard]

There seems to be an underlying assumption that the RPPs can't be as good (or better) in every way to an MP... and somehow the price makes that OK. That's the assumption I'm referring to that you might reconsider.

Jim

 

[Deanan]

As for Cooke S4. I would choose it because it has a warmer tint then an Ultra prime. Something that I find more pleasing for the skin tones. Now this is of course subjective and is highly my preference, but it's shared by others.

Grading, WB, etc. will most of the time override lens tint anyway. Before DI's became so prevalent, it did make sense but it's not as applicable when you're manipulating the color in so many ways now.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

There seems to be an underlying assumption that the RPPs can't be as good (or better) in every way to an MP... and somehow the price makes that OK. That's the assumption I'm referring to that you might reconsider.

Jim

and I'm really up for my opinion to be changed :beer:

 

[Vincent Rice]

It sounds like these lenses will represent a similar seismic shift to that of the R1. Bit of a shock really

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Coming from digital/DSLR world, I'm at a disadvantage in this realm.

What's so great about T2 Cooke S4s that makes them more expensive than Zeiss T1.9 UP or T1.3 SS?

Second, is there a cheat-sheet somewhere that goes through these lenses so I can be up to speed for NAB?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

There seems to be an underlying assumption that the RPPs can't be as good (or better) in every way to an MP... and somehow the price makes that OK. That's the assumption I'm referring to that you might reconsider.

Jim

Because with the price of just two MPs (about USD 40.000) you could buy all set RPPs (also that means together with future RPPs available).

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

There seems to be an underlying assumption that the RPPs can't be as good (or better) in every way to an MP... and somehow the price makes that OK. That's the assumption I'm referring to that you might reconsider.

Jim

WTF...!?! Who ARE you?!! Jim, there is an inherent speed to revolution in the human's ability to accept. I am sure you are secretly happy at how fast it is going. But you seem to want MORE!

Planets are lined up for this sort of thing. The flood gates are opening mang! :rofl:

 

[Mike Prevette]

Jim,

As I'm sure you know It's a classic law of consumer logic. People will equate quality with price, regardless of facts staring them in the face (see: British automobiles)

Also judging how "good" a lens is is so subjective. I think you will only start to change peoples minds once you get these in peoples hands (ie mine) One quick way to help fight the battle is to post more pictures of them. . .