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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Day of Understatements... (RED primes)

Last year at NAB I was ready to purchase a set of any kind of PL lenses and I brought with me $20,000 to do it. The best offer was to get an old Cooke Varotal. I'm so happy I did not purchase any lenses. Anywhere I looked for glass it seemed like the market was against me (I would never imply that the vendors were trying to screw me). So, RED Co. saves my ass again (I can say that they did with my red cameras).

How often do you see that a single company turns a whole market around?

I was expecting HighSpeed killers, not MP killers, but then again this is RED we are talking about.

Absolutely amazing!!!
 
Peter Majtan said:
It is basically a projector with PL mount, where You can stick in a "slide" of a focus chart, etc... and it will project that chart on a screen through the lens. Then You can judge on the screen how the lens "interprets" the chart in terms of sharpness, brightness (or the evenness of) and geometry...

:) Peter
Click to expand...

Peter, did you see any lines in 200 lppmm square at the edge of the chart?

I love MPs especially precision and smoothness of mechanics, but vigneting is peaty bad on MPs
Can't wait to put my hands on RED Primes.............

How is mechanics in comparison to MPs?
 
Andrew said:
Peter, did you see any lines in 200 lppmm square at the edge of the chart?

I love MPs especially precision and smoothness of mechanics, but vigneting is peaty bad on MPs
Can't wait to put my hands on RED Primes.............

How is mechanics in comparison to MPs?
Click to expand...

Boy, did I see... :head_explode:

With mechanics - it's hard to compare diamond to diamond. MP mechanics are the best there is. But now - so are the RPP's...

I hope You are coming to NAB...

:) Peter
 
Julian Banos said:
Last year at NAB I was ready to purchase a set of any kind of PL lenses and I brought with me $20,000 to do it. The best offer was to get an old Cooke Varotal. I'm so happy I did not purchase any lenses. Anywhere I looked for glass it seemed like the market was against me (I would never imply that the vendors were trying to screw me). So, RED Co. saves my ass again (I can say that they did with my red cameras).

How often do you see that a single company turns a whole market around?

I was expecting HighSpeed killers, not MP killers, but then again this is RED we are talking about.

Absolutely amazing!!!
Click to expand...

Hey Julian! We are so getting these... :thumbsup:

:) Peter
 
I cannot wait to get a set of these in my hands!!!!!:thumbsup:
 
Peter, thanks for the report. Were you able to see images shot with the primes or were you able to put the primes on a Red camera and peek in? I'm curious to how these compare optically to Red's 18-50. I really like the optics of the 18-50. Wish I could come to Vegas
 
Richard Darge said:
Peter, thanks for the report. Were you able to see images shot with the primes or were you able to put the primes on a Red camera and peek in? I'm curious to how these compare optically to Red's 18-50. I really like the optics of the 18-50. Wish I could come to Vegas
Click to expand...

I was "only" able to compare them side-by-side on the lens projector. Even if I had the chance to put them on a actual camera, it wouldn't be much of an use, since my eyes were blown away...

I am sure they will shoot with them and show You all at the party, or Mark posts something beforehand... :devil:

:sifone:

Peter
 
Jannard said:
Let's put it this way... we would be very happy to put a MP up on the projector next to the RPP.

Jim
Click to expand...

Do I feel another wager brewing with Stephen Williams? :couch:
 
Peter Majtan said:
I was "only" able to compare them side-by-side on the lens projector. Even if I had the chance to put them on a actual camera, it wouldn't be much of an use, since my eyes were blown away...

I am sure they will shoot with them and show You all at the party, or Mark posts something beforehand... :devil:

:sifone:

Peter
Click to expand...
Peter Majtan said:
Boy, did I see... :head_explode:

With mechanics - it's hard to compare diamond to diamond. MP mechanics are the best there is. But now - so are the RPP's...

I hope You are coming to NAB...

Peter
Click to expand...
Jannard said:
Let's put it this way... we would be very happy to put a MP up on the projector next to the RPP.

Jim
Click to expand...

Not to be disrespectful here but let's please stop with this lens projector talk. Most lenses do ok in a lens projector it's not all about how they perform projected. I understand that the resolution (over the whole image) and CA is excellent with the RPP's and I have no doubts that they're going to be outstanding, but it's about so much more.

MP's have THE SAME T-stop all over their range and they're one WHOLE stop faster. They're practically small zoom lenses to prevent them from breathing and they have interchangeable scales between metric and imperial. As they have between metric and imperial for, unfortunately ONLY, their LDS system. Not to mention that they're aspherical lenses (don't know about the RPP's) and the coating is out of this world (IMO a little to good). The contrast of these lenses is phenomenal on all T-stops, which we all know it's what's important when it comes to judgement of MTF (which is where we can truly measure lenses)...and the bokeh of the MP's stays symmetrical all over their T stop range. Not to mention the mechanics which are so smooth, it's scary.

Now those are the things you pay for when you buy MP's and no one would be more happy then me to see lenses for "affordable" price be in the same high quality. I just find it hard to believe. Why would Zeiss and ARRI then raise their prices for them? Instead of lowering them?

Don't get this wrong I'm really excited by the RPP's and I know they will MORE THEN kick ass for the price AND I KNOW I WILL BUY THEM!!! I also know that I will be really happy with their performance, but will they truly measure up to all those things and compare against MP's? Aren't you guys getting a little carried away? If not... well then you've truly made the impossible possible. (Although you should then also make all your lenses the same T stop and preferably one stop faster :)).

Now I own a set of MP's but my preference is a set of Elites I have. Why? Because they have characteristics. They're a little warmer, more gritty and soft. All things that gives nice texture to my RED material. These are things that the MP's can't provide for me. Understand that I love the MP's but they are IMO a lot of the times to perfect.

A reason for a lot of DP's to choose COOKE S4 is their character.

So I guess what I'm saying is that my 2 cents is that it's not all about lens projection.
 
If RED Primes compare mechanicly to MP then I just need to see this:

attachment.php

MP 65mm at the edge

All I want
(for now)
 
weirdcrew said:
Now I own a set of MP's but my preference is a set of Elites I have. Why? Because they have characteristics. They're a little warmer, more gritty and soft. All things that gives nice texture to my RED material. These are things that the MP's can't provide for me. Understand that I love the MP's but they are IMO a lot of the times to perfect.

A reason for a lot of DP's to choose COOKE S4 is their character.

So I guess what I'm saying is that my 2 cents is that it's not all about lens projection.
Click to expand...

Fredrik, you probably work with film more then with digital.
I can simulate in post look and feel of many lenses when I use MPs
I rather have it too perfect and play in post to simulate softness or color of popular lenses then get stuck on one type of lenses that may or may not fit my next shot.
Problem is that MPs were not created to match the Mysterium sensor and once put on the RED have few drawbacks. Well MPs were created before RED came on the market.
I expect RED Primes are matched to the Mysterium like surgical glove on the hand.

Andrew
 
Well, anyone looking for me on Monday night can probably find me in the Casino, literally putting the $20 I'll have in my pocket (that's all I allow myself to carry in a casino) on Red at the Roulette table. Let's hope that $20 carries me far and I can gather up enough to buy a set of RPPs. I know it's a long shot....but I'm holding out hope. Red shooters are going to have themselves quite a night next Wednesday. Lots of toys to check out.
 
Andrew said:
Fredrik, you probably work with film more then with digital.
I can simulate in post look and feel of many lenses when I use MPs
I rather have it too perfect and play in post to simulate softness or color of popular lenses than get stuck on one type of lenses that may or may not fit my next shot.
Problem is that MPs were not created to match the Mysterium sensor and once put on the RED have few drawbacks. Well MPs were created before RED came on market.
I expect RED Primes are matched to the Mysterium like surgical glove on the hand.

Andrew
Click to expand...

Actually I shot 50/50 and very successfully. I have no problem of shooting either film or digital.

You're most probably right in saying that the RPP's will be made for the RED but IMHO I don't think that it will be that much of a difference to what the MP's will perform. As for mechanics - how are the RPP's going to beat a small zoom made that way to prevent breathing?

As for making the looks afterwards in post. I'm a great believer in making looks in post and embrace it, but believe me that what I do in camera you can not recreate 100%. You can try, but it will never be the same. I've had the best of the best trying a lot of times and it's simply just not the same.

Recently I sat at "The Mill" in London with one of the best graders there and forced him to grade to what my off line quicktime looked like - because it gave a filmic feel. We basically spent hours grading our RED material to that so it would look less digital then it was. Now that was when (for many) it already looked very filmic, because of old anamorphic lenses, filtration in camera, haze as atmosphere and flaring (to milk) in the lens. None of those effects could have been 100% successfully recreated. You could definitely make them but they would never look the same.
 
weirdcrew said:
MP's have THE SAME T-stop all over their range and they're one WHOLE stop faster. They're practically small zoom lenses to prevent them from breathing and they have interchangeable scales between metric and imperial. As they have between metric and imperial for, unfortunately ONLY, their LDS system. Not to mention that they're aspherical lenses (don't know about the RPP's) and the coating is out of this world (IMO a little to good). The contrast of these lenses is phenomenal on all T-stops, which we all know it's what's important when it comes to judgement of MTF (which is where we can truly measure lenses)...and the bokeh of the MP's stays symmetrical all over their T stop range. Not to mention the mechanics which are so smooth, it's scary.

Now those are the things you pay for when you buy MP's and no one would be more happy then me to see lenses for "affordable" price be in the same high quality. I just find it hard to believe. Why would Zeiss and ARRI then raise their prices for them? Instead of lowering them?

Don't get this wrong I'm really excited by the RPP's and I know they will MORE THEN kick ass for the price AND I KNOW I WILL BUY THEM!!! I also know that I will be really happy with their performance, but will they truly measure up to all those things and compare against MP's? Aren't you guys getting a little carried away? If not... well then you've truly made the impossible possible. (Although you should then also make all your lenses the same T stop and preferably one stop faster :)).

Now I own a set of MP's but my preference is a set of Elites I have. Why? Because they have characteristics. They're a little warmer, more gritty and soft. All things that gives nice texture to my RED material. These are things that the MP's can't provide for me. Understand that I love the MP's but they are IMO a lot of the times to perfect.

A reason for a lot of DP's to choose COOKE S4 is their character.

So I guess what I'm saying is that my 2 cents is that it's not all about lens projection.
Click to expand...

Thank you for taking the time to write this post. This is why I spend so much time on this forum.

Andrew said:
Fredrik, you probably work with film more then with digital.
I can simulate in post look and feel of many lenses when I use MPs
I rather have it too perfect and play in post to simulate softness or color of popular lenses than get stuck on one type of lenses that may or may not fit my next shot.
Click to expand...

That is what I was thinking while I read WeirdCrew's post. I am very exited to see someone say this.

In some ways I think that DSMC 5k will be like filming with laboratory equipment. If your film doesn't look like you wanted it to look it will be on you for not doing things right. That kind of power is something out of this world.

Of course many jobs will call for renting S4's or whatever you like the most, Elites for WeirdCrew, so that you don't need to spend more on post if you know what you need can be achieved by baking it into the image.

I would be happy with any of these, but if I can get a set of 5 MP's with one stop handicap for the cost of one MP and a FF then I am a pig below Slumdog's latrines, hehe, and I'll hold up my RPP's high so as not to get a spec on them. lol... well no, I won't do that, but we'll sage it with peanut butter if necessary to express how happy I'll be. Even if my wife won't touch me for a month... "But sweetie it was peanut butter and it is really funny to the guys."

Even if the mechanics are only extremely close to MP's, same with the optics. I wonder what Jim's post about comparing them side to side on a projector really means... 80%? 90%? 95%? Matched in some aspects? I dare not thing about exceeding, but I can dream.

One thing I am sure of, I will not be disappointed, and it sounds I could bet my whole bank account on that.
 
MP's have THE SAME T-stop all over their range and they're one WHOLE stop faster. They're practically small zoom lenses to prevent them from breathing and they have interchangeable scales between metric and imperial. As they have between metric and imperial for, unfortunately ONLY, their LDS system. Not to mention that they're aspherical lenses (don't know about the RPP's) and the coating is out of this world (IMO a little to good). The contrast of these lenses is phenomenal on all T-stops, which we all know it's what's important when it comes to judgement of MTF (which is where we can truly measure lenses)...and the bokeh of the MP's stays symmetrical all over their T stop range. Not to mention the mechanics which are so smooth, it's scary.

I VALUE A LOT YOUR COMMENTS, BUT I REALLY FEEL THAT ECONOMY OF SCALE AND RED CAN BRING WHAT WE LOVE ABOUT MP AT AN AFFORDABLE PRICE.
SO HERE IS A LIST OF THINGS TO LOOK FOR (BESIDES PROJECTION) AS A RECAP:
1. BREATHING
2. INTERCHANGEABLE SCALES
3. ARE THEY SPHERICAL?
4. COATING
5. CONTRAST ON ALL T-STOPS
6. MTF
7. BOKEH
8. MECHANICS
9. I MIGHT ADD WEIGHT AND SIZE


Now those are the things you pay for when you buy MP's and no one would be more happy then me to see lenses for "affordable" price be in the same high quality. I just find it hard to believe. Why would Zeiss and ARRI then raise their prices for them? Instead of lowering them?

YOU COULD ARGUE THE SAME FOR SONY AND THEIR CINEALTAS. WHO CARES?



Now I own a set of MP's but my preference is a set of Elites I have. Why? Because they have characteristics. They're a little warmer, more gritty and soft. All things that gives nice texture to my RED material. These are things that the MP's can't provide for me. Understand that I love the MP's but they are IMO a lot of the times to perfect.

A reason for a lot of DP's to choose COOKE S4 is their character.

I AGREE, LENSES HAVE CHARACTERS. I FAVOR NIKKOR STILLS OVER ZEISS ZF AND I HAVE BOTH PRIME SETS FROM RPLENS. BUT I THINK UPS AND MPS IS TO BRING A VERY NEUTRAL AS POSSIBLE LOOK. AND AS HARD AS IT SOUNDS I THINK THIS IS WHAT I WILL BE LOOKING FOR AS WELL.

PLEASE COMMENT FURTHER ON THIS TO HAVE A MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION.
 
1st off, I don't think anyone really believes that MPs are really T1.3. The falloff is pretty severe wide open.

2nd... character. What does that mean? "Interesting anomalies"? Coatings?

Give me a lens that has NO anomalies, is wicked sharp, geometrically correct, no vignetting, and incredibly great coatings. If I want to create an anomaly, I'll do it in post... what I don't want is to pay a lot of money for a lens "with character" because I know what that really means.

Jim
 
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