A little fun at Newegg... (Apple vs. PC $)

[Roberto Lequeux]

[NEVER ENDING RANT]
This is just for fun guys so don't knock me down.
This is NOT a straight comparison, and I am not a dumb, so please don't point out something I am about to point out myself and do so as if I am a complete idiot. I am writing in clear English. I hope ;-)

I decided to see where the $$$ hardware comparison was currently in the Apple vs. PC situation. With all this talk about the overpriced dual Nehalem chips and what not. Some applications are tied to CPU clock, as it was pointed out in a thread by the friendly and tech savvy folks from Boxx. So I thought, let's see what you would get over at a place like Newegg where you can get most enthusiast hardware at lowest or very close to lowest available prices most the time.


On the blue corner, weighing in at $5,969.00, a Mac Pro with:
_(2!) 2.92GHz Quad Nahealem processors!
_(6) 1GB 1066MHz DDR3 EDIT: I forgot to factor in the additional cost of the 6 x 2GB DDR3 third party sticks
_(1) 640GB 7200rpm drive
_(1) NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512MB

You would save if you got RAM and HDDs else wear. These are not even factored into the price!!!

On the RED corner : ) weighing in at a svelte $5,635.8, a DIY PC:
_(1) 2.66GHz i7 920 Nehalem processor (3.8GHz minimum overclock)
_(6) 2GB 1600Mhz DDR3 (known to hit as high as 2000Mhz)
_(6) 1.5TB 7200.11 Seagate
_(1) GeForce GTX 260 Superclocked 896MB

So those are the main components... the Apple will have 16 threads, the PC only 8. However the PC will have a 30% faster clock speed. The Apple can go up to 24GB of DDR3 while the PC will be limited to only 12GB till the 4GB sticks come out. However, the PC memory will be MUCH faster. Those sticks can hit up to 2000Mhz at their spec timings of 8-8-8-21 which are not slow timings... that is some serious RAM. You will have six 1.5TB drives already in the package with the PC while you still need to go out and pay for those at the current price on the Mac. You will have a MUCH faster video card on the PC, though getting into card compatibility would make this much more complicated so we better ignore the card completely for this comparison. However if you want to make it fair you should realize that the $300 some odd dollar difference in total price for the setups is more than the $200 difference for the HD 4870 512MB, and the cost of the card included on the PC is HIGHER than the $140 you would pay for the 4870 at Newegg (with a better cooler!).

So there is the straight up comparison... 2-cores at 2.92GHz or one at 3.8GHz and more RAM capacity being the only upside with Mac. Though dual CPU motherboards are not Apple's exclusively for much longer so bye bye to that. And don't forget that 4GB DDR3 will come out, and as of now 12 (faster) GB of RAM isn't a bad place to be anyway...

I purposely left OS out of the equation, but to be it should be mentioned that Mac's OS is included in their price. I figured if you are buying a PC you either already own Windows or rather not talk about this.

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Oh! Darnet... I almost forgot... I did add a few other goodies to the PC with the left over cash:
_ (1) HP Dream Color 24"!!!!!
_ (1) nice 1920 x 1200 LCD
_ (1) ARC-1231ML RAID card (with 2GB)!!!!!
_ (1) Blu-Ray/DVD/CD burner

Take the Dream color out of the equation and that just might be enough to cover the dual socket Motherboard and second chip even within the first month or so of their release. If that isn't enough to cover it then taking out the Blu-Ray burner and the second 24" monitor will... and you still get to keep your RAID card!

That RAID card, by the way... would allow you to have INSANE RAID options... and would be more than enough for .R3D work. It is overkill for the internal drives but what the heck... there was a lot of money to spare...

Also notable:
_ The PSU I added is a 750W MONSTER, an true overclocking legend capable of powering everything without breaking a sweat, and incredibly quiet.
_ The CPU cooler is WAY more than enough for 3.8Ghz (AS paste included!)
_ The case has excellent air flow. Induction is through all 6 HDDs and the exhaust drives the air up and out through the CPU... this allows to set the 120mm fans to medium, but even at high they are very quiet. The sound level will be set by the CPU fan speed which won't need to be too fast since the i7's run super cold. (don't like the lights just snip the LED wires)
_ The mouse is phenomenal, I love mine.

A Kona or other card would also have to be factored but that would be a whole other ball game and were not factored into either price.

Aaaand... the only thing I left out as far as I can tell was the keyboard, but getting a FCP specific keyboard would even out the price after you decide what video card you would want on the Apple side.

So there it is... hardware.

Though, I could also look up how much Apple would charge you to match all the other areas straight off their site? Just for fun... (on top of the dual 2.92Ghz CPUs of course). Well... let's just say that it isn't possible.

However, if you maxed out their drives, got two of their 24" LCDs, which are not dream colors but probably significantly nicer than the other 24" I added... if you got their RAID, which as far as I know will likely be humiliated by the Areca... if you got the best video card that they decided you are worthy of, and you added 12GB (6x2GB) of significantly slower DDR3... then you are within fifty bucks of $10,000.

Again... this is not a straight up comparison... it is Apples and Oranges. Or apples and PCs. And it gets even more complicated when you take into account the different workflows available for .r3d. Some take advantage of all 16 threads, some (as mentioned by someone who really knows) still benefit from CPU clock speed.

Also, I only did this for fun and out of curiosity... and in the hardware sense, the real questions are:
_ What will be offered (OR NOT) once Apple's exclusivity license expires in terms of dual CPU Motherboards?
_ What will happen to Apple prices (OR NOT) once that happens?
_ Will dual Xeon 5500 Motherboards overclock at all? even if just a little bit
_ Will dual 17 boards ever happen?
_ What kind of awesomeness will take place with Apple's new OS?
_ Stability? ;P

Let's not forget for the super busy working pros that will likely want to slap me if they read this... IF these things happened, then WHEN?

For some that do less work or want personal a station at home these things may carry a lot of weight. For others, the time that it may take to read this never ending rant may be worth more than $10k. But then why are you reading this? ;-)
[/NEVER ENDING RANT]

EDIT: I realize the $10,000 wise-ass crack at Apple is a bit much. However, because I feel the mark ups are a bit obscene when you consider the unsuspecting consumers that fall into them, I am not deleting it and just adding this disclaimer so we don't get a 100 posts ripping me a new one. I do realize it is a bit much to say in a forum where most know what they are doing. My bad.

 

[Jay Voutour]

Yeah, but will the pc run FCS? :wink:
________
Volcano vaporizer easy valve vs solid valve

 

[GlennChan]

IMO, overclocking is not really worth the time. You have to figure out if your system is stable, and the stress testing programs don't catch everything. You'll have to spend some time overclocking your system + testing it... but the whole point of overclocking is to save time. So it's a bit like one step forward one step backwards.

And in 2 years your computer will be obsolete regardless. I'd just keep it simple, buy a new computer every 2 years and don't spend too much on it.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Yeah, but will the pc run FCS? :wink:

yeah, but can color do a full debayer or fcp 10 bit rgb or macpro use the nnvidia quadro with sdi board?

saying this as mac and pc user

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

No PC dual processed board yet, right?

And 1GB of RAM on the Mac? What are you gonna do with that?

You gotta go triple channel for the i7s, so 2 and 4 is not very optimal.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

No, not yet, but there is no freaking way that there won't be a dual Xeon 5500 board. Also, they will likely take more memory. If so then Apple's ONLY hardware advantages vanish into the wind. Or do you think they are going to renew their exclusivity contract? Something tells me they'd have to sell their own stock to afford that.

You don't seem to understand how DDR3 works. What matters is that you have the same modules in sets of three, not that the capacity of each be a multiple of 3.

But thank you for pointing out the fact that I left out the actual cost of the six 2GB DDR3 third party Apple RAM... I figured there would be something I'd forget to include on that long ass rant.

However, that only makes the tables shift more in the same direction.

I guess I'll have to find something else to buy for the PC side... maybe a better VFX card... or TWO. I believe the Motherboard that I have in mind will have no issues with two massive Nvidias in SLI plus a Kona

I'll update the post if you get me a link.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

IMO, overclocking is not really worth the time. You have to figure out if your system is stable, and the stress testing programs don't catch everything. You'll have to spend some time overclocking your system + testing it... but the whole point of overclocking is to save time. So it's a bit like one step forward one step backwards.

And in 2 years your computer will be obsolete regardless. I'd just keep it simple, buy a new computer every 2 years and don't spend too much on it.

I am not going to dispute that... however I will add to it.

There are some of us that already know how to do this stuff. I would bet anything you want that I would have it done and 24hs-stress-tested all in one weekend... I like doing this stuff. For me it is a hobby, just like working on a nice and big American V-8.

Also, the fact that computers become obsolete is the very reason why every computer should be overclocked.

By the time it dies, which could be anywhere from 40 to 100 years give or take, it will be a piece of crap anyway... So why keep it under-clocked from factory? A faster clock will barely raise temperature, and if properly cooled you are likely not going to see much of a life-span drop. Now if you add above spec voltage, which I am not talking about doing for those speeds I posted... then you only cut of about 7-10 years off the life-span of the components.

IF you add too much voltage you could kill then RAM in a few seconds... but that is the overclocker's fault. If you know how to do the stuff that will not happen... besides... spec speed for that RAM is much faster than Apple speed anyway, add the maximum spec voltage and not only will you be legaly entitled to your warranty but you will also likely get a little more than spec speed and timings.

Let me clarify once more that I am talking about using spec voltages in the first post. If it dies with their voltage rating then it was not the overclocking that did it. The speed specs are not a warranty limit, but what they guarantee that you should get out of it.

Worse case scenario: My rig dies in 30 years... though a simple RAM swap will likely keep it running much much longer. HDDs can also be replaced... but who cares anyway. By then we'll be editing 3k on our iPhones, lol... or something like that anyway...

So, overclocking saves you both time and money...

UNLESS you don't know how to do it. HOWEVER, in that case what you need to consider is that it would 90% be a time investment upfront, then you will understand how it is done to the point where all you need to do for your next rig is:

1. search a forum for the best new deals and gear, they are hard to miss
2. search for the current stress tests for your hardware and find how to set up the tests properly, often stikied
3. search for spec voltage and temperature ratings to make sure you stay within the manufacturer's specs, manufacturer's website
4. overclock!
5. run a 24hs test

Once you have a nice config that seems stable (mind you 3.8Ghz is more of a plug and play clock for i7's) then you get a day-long test going.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

IMO, overclocking is not really worth the time. You have to figure out if your system is stable, and the stress testing programs don't catch everything. You'll have to spend some time overclocking your system + testing it... but the whole point of overclocking is to save time. So it's a bit like one step forward one step backwards.

And in 2 years your computer will be obsolete regardless. I'd just keep it simple, buy a new computer every 2 years and don't spend too much on it.

I actually disagree. You can google your exact PCU + motherboard + memory combination and find forums where people post all the exact settings that worked best for them. These or very similar settings usually work perfectly and it only takes a couple minutes to dial them in.

I have a 2.5ghz Intel quad core overclocked to 3.3ghz and it is rock solid. Overclocking the 4 gigs of memory actually made the biggest difference though.

With just a couple minutes of research you can find out which Mobo + CPU + Memory combinations overclock best and all the guesswork is taken out of the equation.

 

[Kenneth Elkington]

No PC dual processed board yet, right?

And 1GB of RAM on the Mac? What are you gonna do with that?

You gotta go triple channel for the i7s, so 2 and 4 is not very optimal.

Exactly, all comparisons are moot until there's a retail board for pc, and until then Mac will win every performance comparison.

 

[Eric S.]

No PC dual processed board yet, right?

And 1GB of RAM on the Mac? What are you gonna do with that?

You gotta go triple channel for the i7s, so 2 and 4 is not very optimal.

Not yet, but soon. The Asus Z8NA-D6 was announced recently and will probably appear soon after Apple's Nehalem Xeon exclusivity rights expire. Dual CPU sockets, 6 DIMM slots with support for ECC memory. For Asus to be announcing a dual-socket platform so quickly means good things. The nice thing about the Z8NA-D6 is that it will fit in a standard ATX case, use standard desktop power supplies, and has 14 SATA connectors. We'll see what the pricing is soon enough. You'll have to use Xeon processors to utilize both sockets, of course.

IMO, overclocking is not really worth the time. You have to figure out if your system is stable, and the stress testing programs don't catch everything. You'll have to spend some time overclocking your system + testing it... but the whole point of overclocking is to save time. So it's a bit like one step forward one step backwards.

And in 2 years your computer will be obsolete regardless. I'd just keep it simple, buy a new computer every 2 years and don't spend too much on it.

I understand your sentiment exactly, especially if you're in a professional environment and working on an important project late at night that's due the next morning.

However, you should know that overclocking has come a long ways and that these chips are overclocking in a very healthy way. A safe overclock can be very fast and it's only the extreme overclocks that take a lot of time. I think most people have overclocked the 2.66 Ghz 920's to ~3.2ghz without any voltage change. For students or freelancers or anyone else who is so inclined, not only does overclocking help us get the most for our money, it's also part of a "computer zen" mindset.

Computer junkies enjoy keeping up with hardware improvements and will often upgrade their computer ever year with minor changes. For example, lots of current systems could improve from incorporating an Intel x25 SSD as their bootdrive (budget permitting, of course). Maybe next year will be blu-ray burners? Basically, hardware enthusiasts also save money and extend their system's lifespan with incremental improvements.

Not that I don't understand the two-year obsolescence fear. But seeing as RED has adopted a modular design for the new cameras, it might also be interesting for members here to realize that their computer is one of the ultimate modular designs.

[

Also, I only did this for fun and out of curiosity... and in the hardware sense, the real questions are:
_ What will be offered (OR NOT) once Apple's exclusivity license expires in terms of dual CPU Motherboards?
_ What will happen to Apple prices (OR NOT) once that happens?
_ Will dual Xeon 5500 Motherboards overclock at all? even if just a little bit
_ Will dual 17 boards ever happen?
_ What kind of awesomeness will take place with Apple's new OS?
_ Stability? ;P

1. See my response above.

2. I wouldn't expect Apple prices to drop so quickly after announcing the new Mac Pros.

3. Xeon-classified processors are very similar to their Core i7 consumer counterparts except for the fact that they're some of the best of the best. That means Xeons should overclock very well. In fact, the Z8NA-D6 and other Xeon-supporting boards might allow for unlocking the FSB multiplier, which could yield very impressive overclocks.

4. Dual i7 boards can't happen because the i7 CPUs only have one QPI path. The dual-socket boards can have one i7 CPU, but that defeats the purpose of having two sockets. I wouldn't worry about this though since Xeon processors are typically priced similarly to their consumer counterparts.

This is always a fun exercise, but don't get too bogged down in the hardware. Remember that computers, while often compared to hot rods by hardware enthusiasts, should be seen first and foremost as tools. Apple allows for the use of FCS and Color, which you'll be paying a premium for when you buy the hardware.

Eric

Edit: Also, if you're serious about grading on a budget, look at the Firepro V8700. Dual DisplayPort outputs at close to industry-leading performance for $1100. Not sure if ATi cards with displayport are supporter yet by big players like Scratch.

Edit 2: Lucas said that DisplayPort is approved on certain Nvidia cards (like the Quadro CX), so perhaps Scratch will eventually officially support ATi DisplayPort offerings?

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Exactly, all comparisons are moot until there's a retail board for pc, and until then Mac will win every performance comparison.

Apparently that is already not the case for things that require high clocks and don't take advantage of the 16 cores.

However, as an overall system I believe that is right with the faster Mac Pros with two CPUs since you do have quite a high clock, and you have 16 threads.

 

[Tom Lowe]

PCs have always been a better value, because Apple has a monopoly on their own hardware.

I bet you could put that PC together for even less than you quoted there.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

PCs have always been a better value, because Apple has a monopoly on their own hardware.

I bet you could put that PC together for even less than you quoted there.

Absolutely, that was with no shopping around, all out of Newegg. However not for much less, I am using top shelf components all around.

Eric, nice find, that is what I have been hearing but never got a link to an actual article. 24GB of Unbuffered RAM sounds perfect! I got a full ATX tower picked already

You reminded me that there is a small voltage bump for 3.8GHz... however the only reason I forgot for those ready to call heresy on me, that is because since the Duos Intel has been severely underclocking their stuff... probably because they are really kicking AMD's but and their stuff is well ahead of the game. There has been thousands of people pushing some really insane voltages for years and the chips won't die... Intel chips are made of steel nowadays... and that is why I got into overclocking. There is a lot of headroom for gains while staying clear of the problems and instability.

 

[Cail Young]

I'm confused as to why you aren't comparing equal CPUs, given that Apple is also selling the 2.66GHz Nehalems... your config with a single 2.66 (to match the Newegg config) is USD$2649.

The 2.93s currently have an enormous premium on the price, and putting two of them in the box is of course going to drive the Apple price up.

I'm aware you can overclock PC motherboards but let's compare like with like for the sake of price comparisons.

...or are you trying to build the best near-$6000 machine you can? In which case, yes, this makes some sense, but why the crack about maxing the Apple rig up to $10k - this has always been possible by adding two 24" monitors and heaps of RAM; Apple charges too much for these items, and always has. That's why you buy Dreamcolors, or Dells or Samsungs if you're not color-critical, and shop around for RAM after-market.

In answer to your posed questions, I can say one thing with relative certainty - Apple's prices won't move a penny once their exclusivity deal is over. They might introduce a new, faster system, but the prices on their current dual Nehalem boards will be the same.

 

[Daniel Browning]

I decided to see where the $$$ hardware comparison was currently in the Apple vs. PC situation.

I think it is more interesting to compare similarly equipped models.

Another factor to keep in mind is that the price on Apple systems rarely (never?) drops, while the PC-side gets cheaper and cheaper every week.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

3. Xeon-classified processors are very similar to their Core i7 consumer counterparts except for the fact that they're some of the best of the best. That means Xeons should overclock very well. In fact, the Z8NA-D6 and other Xeon-supporting boards might allow for unlocking the FSB multiplier, which could yield very impressive overclocks.

I thought so but I didn't want to say it myself as I really know very little about Xeons.

Apple allows for the use of FCS and Color, which you'll be paying a premium for when you buy the hardware.

I am not sure if I follow what you are saying here, but I thing there may be an other stable way to use them without breaking any laws... not sure.

But I do want to grade in color... I am really rooting for those MacRumors to be true about the pro apps, and the new OS... maybe there won't be the need for the hassle... maybe a dual 2.92 will grade .r3d 5k natively and in RT... never say never, and hope it is sooner than later. : )

Edit: Also, if you're serious about grading on a budget, look at the Firepro V8700. Dual DisplayPort outputs at close to industry-leading performance for $1100. Not sure if ATi cards with displayport are supporter yet by big players like Scratch.

Edit 2: Lucas said that DisplayPort is approved on certain Nvidia cards (like the Quadro CX), so perhaps Scratch will eventually officially support ATi DisplayPort offerings?

There is no way I could begin to consider a heavily discounted Scratch license... and I really have little clue about what VFX card can do what in the FCS + Color world.. but I intend to find out. Thanks for the info.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Apple has really priced their new systems high. They sure are proud of their exclusive deal. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a price adjustment within the next two months. They tend to do that every now and then. Probably not so much a lowering of the base price, but they will alter what is included.

A PC equipped with dual i7 Xeons will be quite a bit more expensive than the single desktop i7 config here.

Anyway, as someone who happily runs both Mac and PC systems, I'm happy to say that I'll be building a new PC workstation once the dual i7's are available to build with for us end users. I have two Mac Pro systems right now, one bought right after the January '08 update and one last June~July. So I don't intend on buying a new Mac Pro for at least one more product cycle. I'm really hoping that the rumblings of Apple opening up the video subsystem with Snow Leopard are true. And it's quite possible that the meager video card offerings with this new Mac Pro update do point to this.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I'm confused as to why you aren't comparing equal CPUs, given that Apple is also selling the 2.66GHz Nehalems... your config with a single 2.66 (to match the Newegg config) is USD$2649.

The 2.93s currently have an enormous premium on the price, and putting two of them in the box is of course going to drive the Apple price up.

I'm aware you can overclock PC motherboards but let's compare like with like for the sake of price comparisons.

...or are you trying to build the best near-$6000 machine you can? In which case, yes, this makes some sense, but why the crack about maxing the Apple rig up to $10k - this has always been possible by adding two 24" monitors and heaps of RAM; Apple charges too much for these items, and always has. That's why you buy Dreamcolors, or Dells or Samsungs if you're not color-critical, and shop around for RAM after-market.

In answer to your posed questions, I can say one thing with relative certainty - Apple's prices won't move a penny once their exclusivity deal is over. They might introduce a new, faster system, but the prices on their current dual Nehalem boards will be the same.

I am comparing things based on their potential real-world impact on my personal situation. I am not going to buy a PC and leave it stock, not going to buy HDDs or RAM from Apple, hence the ~$6k rig selected for the main comparison.

The crack about the $10k cost of a 100% Apple rig was my bad... sorry about that... I guess I was upset about the VFX limitation or something and got carried away. However the main comparison was between what you could get from both sides with the same money, though I did forget to add the 3rd party Apple RAM. So maybe I should just take the last 10k part off the post, then again it is kind of a nasty mark up to charge an unsuspecting buyer, unless they are targeting uber-rich studios on a deadline in which case they know better too. I dunno, but you are right about the 10k crack thing.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a price adjustment within the next two months. They tend to do that every now and then. Probably not so much a lowering of the base price, but they will alter what is included.

That is what I am hoping for. Investors money has a strong gravitation towards OEM stuff and I'd love having an Apple.

A PC equipped with dual i7 Xeons will be quite a bit more expensive than the single desktop i7 config here.

Indeed.... a BIG point to be made. That is why the comparison isn't an Apples to Apples but the two things you could do have right now.

I hope "920" Xeons will come in at about $500 and the Mobo doesn't cost more than $600-$800. In that case we'd have an actual comparison to make and the conversation could get down to brass tacks and end up in the software realm.

I'm really hoping that the rumblings of Apple opening up the video subsystem with Snow Leopard are true. And it's quite possible that the meager video card offerings with this new Mac Pro update do point to this.

Oh! Please explain to me what this means. Do you mean that the grading would be handled by the CPU? It only makes sense as we move towards super efficient CPUs with ever increasing cores... CUP clocks may only hig about 5.0Ghz in stock configuration eventually, but the cores are going to continue reproducing like cells under that die.... it won't be long before we have 32, 64, 128... and so on... and by then we'll be able to have everything be handled by one chip... that is the natural progression. VFX cards do seem like a cumbersome unnecessary module in the future. Am I way off base? Or is this what you suggest may be happening?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm saving up my hardware money for a Caustic raytracing card next year.

When it comes to 3D work 2.6Ghz vs 3.22Ghz is going to be nothing compared to the 10-20x render speed.

And with splutterfish acquired by them I shouldn't expect anything on the apple front for at least a year after that. If you want raytraced rendering you're going to want Windows in 12 months.

I would be really hesitant right now to invest a lot of money in a multi-cpu machine since the 'age of co-processors' is nearly upon us again. Purpose built hardware is where you get speed increases to write home about.