Scratch on the new Macs?

[Andrae Palmer]

Bettsy, the argument of staying on a single platform for editing and finishing is not a serious one, is it?

I think its pretty darn serious. Most Scratch workstations are going for $17,500.00 including the Quadro SDI card and 4GB memory. If you work in Final Cut Studio with RED footage you will need a pretty high end system with enough memory to support those cores. If Scratch was on Mac OSX you are looking at cost savings of around $10,000 due to having only one workstation system. I think that type of money is pretty significant. I actually think the cost in having 2 workstations is higher than 10k if you include RAID arrays and full memory expansion of both systems to at least 16GB with Nehalem 16 cores (virtual/physical)... this type of memory is appropriate. With a Scratch license being around 55k... saving 10k by not having to buy a PC workstation is great. With that 10k you could purchase control panels or a RAID. So a 20% fraction is a pretty huge fraction. Basically I don't want to buy a very fast 8 core Nehalem 2.93 Mac Pro with 16GB and then have to buy a PC version just to run Scratch. I am not even adding the cost for accessories for the PC workstation like a 23" display, professional coloring monitor, etc. I would definitely like to have everything on one platform... the platform that I have to work in... Mac. I don't necessarily have to run Scratch... I would like to run Scratch for a competitive advantage. I can only hope now that Color, Speed Grade, etc... comes out with an SDI option for 2k realtime playback as well as apple beefing up color in the next 2 months.

 

[Barend Onneweer]

Facetmedia, I wasn't referring to budget, but the 'ease of use' that I thought Bettsy was referring to in terms of taking an FCP edit to a Scratch station.

Bettsy: although your "sell 1 Scratch seat to 1 in 10 FCP users" was probably just a wild example, I think you're overestimating the market. I think most of the FCP users don't even touch Color, and if they did most of them would be happy enough with it. The people on a budget won't spend a dime beyond Color. That's my guess.

As for Mac users being a huge market for Scratch at it's current price point: I don't have numbers but to me it doesn't seem like Speedgrade is selling huge numbers on OSX.

And finally: Facetmedia - I get your point, and all things equal it would be nice to be able to run Windows on a Mac with true Windows drivers. On the other hand, I'd really hate to tie up my Scratch workstation as an edit station.

Bar3nd

 

[richards]

We actually already support the Display Port on the NVidia CX cards, and we support feeding true 10-bit out that port. To my knowledge, we are the only manufacturer that does this.

Lucas

Hi Lucas,

Given that Nvidia are promoting the CX card for use with Adobe CS4, are you saying that CS4 apps are not outputing 10 bit on the Display Port?

Regards,

Richard

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Most Scratch workstations are going for $17,500.00 including the Quadro SDI card and 4GB memory.

The workstations I have seen quoted recently with SDI are all under $15K. This is without significant storage, of course.

With a Scratch license being around 55k...

A SCRATCH-CINE license is US$17.5K. A FINISH license is closer to the price you state. But most people here are interested primarily in CINE.

I can only hope now that Color, Speed Grade, etc... comes out with an SDI option for 2k realtime playback as well as apple beefing up color in the next 2 months.

There is an SDI option for 2K realtime playback - AJA. There is not a GPU-> SDI option. Keep in mind, the NVidia SDI cards have been out for almost 4 years now. Why do you think Apple is going to change their minds now?

Nothing wrong with hoping for it... I just wouldn't get your hopes too high.

Lucas

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Luki, I have worked in Mac development and I know what a pain in the arse they are. Believe me - let's talk "gamma shift" for a second. And I know Microsoft give way better support to their developers. Still, a lot of folk do successfully develop for Mac and there's a huge number of folk out there cutting on FCP so all I'm saying is, "There's a market and if the resource (SDI) became available, what would you do?"

If there was a true GPU->SDI path on OSX, then we would look seriously at a port to OSX. (I thought I said that below? )

Yes, there are a massive number of people cutting on FCP. And all those people have access to Color. The right question to ask is... what percentage of that market would spend significant money to get something other than Color? I believe that number is very, very small.

Not sure if you mean high performance there or high priced. The two terms are not necessarily linked. We are, after all, on the Red forum and I'm sure Sony, Panavision et al use similar language when discussing Red.

Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant high-performance in my particular market segment, which granted is a small one.

Lucas

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Given that Nvidia are promoting the CX card for use with Adobe CS4, are you saying that CS4 apps are not outputing 10 bit on the Display Port?

I don't know how Adobe supports the DisplayPort driver.

Lucas

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Bettsy: although your "sell 1 Scratch seat to 1 in 10 FCP users" was probably just a wild example, I think you're overestimating the market. I think most of the FCP users don't even touch Color, and if they did most of them would be happy enough with it. The people on a budget won't spend a dime beyond Color. That's my guess.

Hi Barend,

i just read that you bought a Scratch seat. Congartulations! As you know I am on the SpeedGrade side and happy with Iridas as you are hopefully with Assimilate.

Regarding Colour and FCP. Yes, most FCP users prefer solutions such as Colorista. Color is a true DI app. and needs a bit of training to justify the work involved to make a successful roundtripp happen and finally achieving a visually better result than with the tools within FCP. The very most don't need Color.

As for Mac users being a huge market for Scratch at it's current price point: I don't have numbers but to me it doesn't seem like Speedgrade is selling huge numbers on OSX.

Actually there are quite a few who use SpeedGrade on the Mac. And the Mac users base is growing. But for those who want to build a client proof grading suite you need SDI out. Nvidia SDI out actually does work on a bootcamped MacPro as good as on any other Intel PC (you use the original Windows Nvidia driver) but you have to pull the Nvidia SDI board when you want to boot in OSX. For Scratch and RT 2K the MacPros are too slow. The debayering needs tons of CPU power.

As mentioned above running native Windows Nvidida driver for the 5600fx does work very well on a bootcamped MacPro. I do it on a daily basis. I find it nice to have the best of the two worlds in one setup. If Apple would only solve the SDI board issue. But then the new Displayport can for some users substitute HDSDI. The upcoming 5800fx has 10 bit Displayport outs. As always Apple is a bit slow but they will catch up - but no SDI board in the future. Unfortunately, I'm dead sure about this.

Hans

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Nvidia SDI out actually does work on a bootcamped MacPro as good as on any other Intel PC (you use the original Windows Nvidia driver) but you have to pull the Nvidia SDI board when you want to boot in OSX. For Scratch and RT 2K the MacPros are too slow. The debayering needs tons of CPU power.

Thank you very much for your valuable input. So the SDI card does work with the native driver... just as I thought. Do you think the Nehalem 8 core 2.93 Mac Pro would be fast enough in bootcamp for realtime 2k playback?

 

[Barend Onneweer]

Hi Barend,

i just read that you bought a Scratch seat. Congartulations! As you know I am on the SpeedGrade side and happy with Iridas as you are hopefully with Assimilate.

Hi Hans, the system should arrive any day now I evaluated Speedgrade, too. There were elements in Speedgrade that I preferred over Scratch, and vice versa. In the end I chose Scratch. Both served my needs, but my brain liked the Scratch UI better. Just a personal thing.

Actually there are quite a few who use SpeedGrade on the Mac. And the Mac users base is growing.

I wasn't saying there was no market for SpeedGrade on OSX, nor did I want to imply anything negative about it. But it was suggested that there was a huge market for low to mid-level priced grading software out there - and I think Apple killed that market with Color.

Bar3nd

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Thank you very much for your valuable input. So the SDI card does work with the native driver... just as I thought. Do you think the Nehalem 8 core 2.93 Mac Pro would be fast enough in bootcamp for realtime 2k playback?

I would wait for NAB. After NAB we probably see an Apple version of the 5800fx, new Displayport "pro" panels that are 10bit and hopefully in the 2K ballpark (Eizo for instance could be such a manufacturer) and finally we know how fast the competitors to Assimilate will be able to debayer R3Ds with the new machines. Plus I guess that a new update of Red's SDK will be out by then.

Hans

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I would wait for NAB. After NAB we probably see an Apple version of the 5800fx, new Displayport "pro" panels that are 10bit and hopefully in the 2K ballpark (Eizo for instance could be such a manufacturer) and finally we know how fast the competitors to Assimilate will be able to debayer R3Ds with the new machines. Plus I guess that a new update of Red's SDK will be out by then.

Hans

Good advice... I'm not spending a dime until after NAB.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I fully agree. But I don't think that even without Apple's Color there wouldn be a market that could be called huge. DI apps. need expensive hardware and skilled staff. Most FCP user don't want/need this. Color does not really help to sell FCP, IMO.

Hans

 

[Shane Betts]

If there was a true GPU->SDI path on OSX, then we would look seriously at a port to OSX. (I thought I said that below? )

Thanks Luki. I think that might prove to be a worthwhile effort if and when we can actually get GPU driven 10 or 12 bit output from Macs. Display Port actually supports up to 16 bits per colour channel and up to over 8Gb/s of raw data. While I don't see anyone writing code to take full advantage that, a physical adaptor to HD-SDI would seem well in the brief of an AJA or Blackmagic Design to do.

Yes, there are a massive number of people cutting on FCP. And all those people have access to Color. The right question to ask is... what percentage of that market would spend significant money to get something other than Color? I believe that number is very, very small.

Agreed, the percentage of FCP users who would spring for a mid to high end grading solution might be small but a small percentage of FCP users is still a big number. FCP users span from bedrooms to the studios and I think there might be a bunch of guys in the middle there who could use what you have.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Thank you very much for your valuable input. So the SDI card does work with the native driver... just as I thought. Do you think the Nehalem 8 core 2.93 Mac Pro would be fast enough in bootcamp for realtime 2k playback?

Yes, this will work. But as I said below, this does three things:

1) Invalidates your Apple warranty. If your Mac Pro breaks, tough luck.
2) Invalidates your NVidia warranty, and is completely unsupported by NVidia.
3) Is not officially supported by anyone (including Iridas.)

If you want to build your own and are comfortable with what that means, then obviously that is your choice.

Most of the facilities that I work with are not comfortable with anything other than a fully supported system. ASSIMILATE will not, in good conscience, sell a license of SCRATCH to someone that we know is going into a completely unsupported configuration. Those are the configurations that fail when you can least afford the failure.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Andrae Palmer]

1) Invalidates your Apple warranty. If your Mac Pro breaks, tough luck.
2) Invalidates your NVidia warranty, and is completely unsupported by NVidia.
3) Is not officially supported by anyone (including Iridas.)

Lucas,

If the computer is just a fraction of the cost of the license... what does it matter?

Those are the configurations that fail when you can least afford the failure.

Has Assimilate had any experience with these configurations? Have you guys tried to waste an Nvidia card or Mac Pro?

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Yes, this will work. But as I said below, this does three things:

1) Invalidates your Apple warranty. If your Mac Pro breaks, tough luck.
2) Invalidates your NVidia warranty, and is completely unsupported by NVidia.
3) Is not officially supported by anyone (including Iridas.)

Lukas is right. I forgot to mention that installing a Nvidida HDSDI card in a MacPro is not supported or even recommended by anyone. It does work though...

Hans

 

[Shane Betts]

I forgot to mention that installing a Nvidida HDSDI card in a MacPro is not supported or even recommended by anyone. It does work though...

Hans

Hah hah! Love it.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

If the computer is just a fraction of the cost of the license... what does it matter?

It matters because when it's 9PM the night before a deadline and your system goes down, you need to have someone to call. If you are 100% self-sufficient, then maybe that is not an issue. But the typical customers I deal with are used to being able to pick up a phone and get a faulty part replaced in under 24 hours.

Short answer - it's not a cost issue, it's a support issue.

Has Assimilate had any experience with these configurations? Have you guys tried to waste an Nvidia card or Mac Pro?

To my knowledge, nobody internally has tested an NVidia SDI card in a Mac Pro. You shouldn't be asking me. You should be asking Apple.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Shane Betts]

And this is where I go back to my very first post. Why would you do it?

Whilst I love the rebellious stance of running the NVidia SDI card in a Mac Pro, there are a number of downsides to the approach. Firstly, no support. From nobody. Secondly, you have to swap out the GFX card in order to boot under Mac. This not only makes it a pain in the arse but will eventually kill your Mac Pro. In my time at BMD we would swap cards out all the time as we tested. It doesn't take long for those slots to become loose and things start to go pear shaped. They're not designed to be constantly changed.

OK, if you're posting your indie feature and you swap the card once at the end of editorial to do the grade - OK, I'm there. Makes sense. But if you're using the system for short form or need it to last over a number of projects, I'd say it's dangerous.

Because what this leaves you with is, quite likely, a very expensive silver PC, and you saving for another Mac Pro. Saving for a fast PC, even one by Boxx, will see you with change in your pocket, a lot less hassle and support from the vendors.

Yes, I'd like to see Mac support from Assimilate and I believe the Display Port might be the answer, yes I'm constantly amazed that Apple can't get their shit together to implement the NVidia SDI card but, until those things happen, I'm still in the buy a PC camp.

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

OK, if you're posting your indie feature and you swap the card once at the end of editorial to do the grade - OK, I'm there. Makes sense.

Except for the fact that very few people buy SCRATCH to use on their own indie feature... :whistling: