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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Mixing footage with Sony Z1

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AntonyCASAFilms

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I'm sure the first answer will be.... "Don't!" :sarcasm:

But moving swiftly on, if I need to choose my settings so that the editor has an easier life cutting my Red footage with Sony Z1 1080i 50Hz (UK) footage, what is the best way to set up my Red?

I was thinking because Red is progressive and not interlaced, I should set the Project Rate at 1/25.
Set the shutter speed to 1/50.

And the 4k R3D files will give the editor plenty of scope for panning and zooming the image.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Antony
 
Don't! Just 'cause I had to...

If there is a lot of Z1 footage, you'll need to "dumb down" the Red footage to match, soften, colour, maybe even some noise.

If the Z1 stuff is only one shot, I say make the Red look good, and hope the Z1 stuff doesn't pop too much.
 
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Thanks for the replies so far.

To answer your Qs:
There will be 1 Red (mine) and about 4 Sony Z1s.
The footage will be edited in Premiere CS4.0.1, so will be using the Red importer, so no need to downconvert to 1080 first.

What I am most concerned about at the moment, is what frame rate and shutter speed I should use, considering that Red is progressive and Sony is interlaced.
 
AntonyCASAFilms said:
What I am most concerned about at the moment, is what frame rate and shutter speed I should use, considering that Red is progressive and Sony is interlaced.
Click to expand...

Shooting at 50 fps with 2K windowed sensor would be the closest match to Z1:s 1/3" sensors and it's 50i HDV format (assuming they're not using the fake 25p option on the Z1:s). Set shutter speed to 1/50.
 
CraigWB said:
50p in no way what so ever looks like 50i, it won't match and he'll be wasting bandwidth.

It won't look jerky.
Click to expand...

That's simply NOT true.

As far as motion goes, 50p looks more or less exactly like 50i and vice versa. 50i copy created from 50p original will be virtually indistinguishable from footage that was originally shot in 50i, if all other things are equal.

And 25p will indeed look jerky compared to 50i - it only has half of the motion information.
 
Have you considered shooting everything with Z1?

Allways test is a must.

Best regards,

J
 
Juan Baranchuk said:
Have you considered shooting everything with Z1?
Click to expand...

For this shoot I have considered that option.

But on future shoots I may not have the option (i.e. it may be a case of "whatever footage we can get we will need to use").

The reason for this is Live events which cannot be redone and where footage may need to be combined.

So I still would like to know.

But it seems from all the above posts (and thank you all for contributing) that there is NOT a consensus of opinion.

So I am still unsure.
 
For live events shoot 50p on the RED. You may want to de-interlace the Z1's footage or to re-interlace the 50p footage, depending on screening conditions. Both can be done with FieldsKit by revisionfx, but re-interlacing is much faster (and can be done in AE too).
 
AntonyCASAFilms said:
But it seems from all the above posts (and thank you all for contributing) that there is NOT a consensus of opinion.
Click to expand...

It's not really even a matter of opinion, but a mathematical fact - 25p simply will not give you enough motion information.

If you need to match 50i cadence with red, you will need to shoot 50p to do so.
 
AntonyCASAFilms said:
For this shoot I have considered that option.

But on future shoots I may not have the option (i.e. it may be a case of "whatever footage we can get we will need to use").

The reason for this is Live events which cannot be redone and where footage may need to be combined.

So I still would like to know.

But it seems from all the above posts (and thank you all for contributing) that there is NOT a consensus of opinion.

So I am still unsure.
Click to expand...

I still say shoot 25p on the red, it will make it much easier for you in post.
People mix 50i and 25p all the time, shooting 50p to match the 50i is just nuts, especially when you consider that 50i is treated more or less like 25p when it's in your system anyway.
 
CraigWB said:
I still say shoot 25p on the red, it will make it much easier for you in post.
Click to expand...

I don't think the question was "how to make post as easy as possible" but rather "how to match red footage to 50i HDV".

...and even if it was, premiere *should* recognize the 50p frame rate automatically, and treat this 50p footage just like it treats 50i, and the post is supposedly just as easy as with 25p (i own, but don't normally use premiere, so i haven't actually checked). Data rate is not a real concern either - 50p @ 2K should take just half of the space compared to 25p @ 4K.

People mix 50i and 25p all the time, shooting 50p to match the 50i is just nuts, especially when you consider that 50i is treated more or less like 25p when it's in your system anyway.
Click to expand...

Not true. Okay, it is true that people mix 25p and 50i all the time, but it looks bad and shouldn't be done if possible to avoid - for the obvious reasons.

The second part of what you wrote is very far from truth. If the editing system is working properly, it does NOT treat 50i like 25p. That would create very, very nasty artifacts when i.e. scaling the interlaced footage.
 
Eki Halkka said:
I don't think the question was "how to make post as easy as possible" but rather "how to match red footage to 50i HDV".

...and even if it was, premiere *should* recognize the 50p frame rate automatically, and treat this 50p footage just like it treats 50i, and the post is supposedly just as easy as with 25p (i own, but don't normally use premiere, so i haven't actually checked). Data rate is not a real concern either - 50p @ 2K should take just half of the space compared to 25p @ 4K.



Not true. Okay, it is true that people mix 25p and 50i all the time, but it looks bad and shouldn't be done if possible to avoid - for the obvious reasons.

The second part of what you wrote is very far from truth. If the editing system is working properly, it does NOT treat 50i like 25p. That would create very, very nasty artifacts when i.e. scaling the interlaced footage.
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely convinced you have any idea what you're talking about in all honesty.
 
CraigWB said:
I'm not entirely convinced you have any idea what you're talking about in all honesty.
Click to expand...

Well, i work mostly on post production, so conversions between various formats, frame rates, interlaced and progressive etc. have been very common part of my regular work days in the last 20 years.

I've done 50p to 50i conversion earlier, so i have first hand experience of what i am talking about.

I've seen 35mm film that was shot at 50fps look very much like regular interlaced video after 50i conversion (it was a fun experiment, btw).

I've mixed and matched 25p and 50i footage in the same project and know what the difference looks like.

I've shot, operated and edited a metric s*load of Z1 footage - interlaced, usually de-interlaced in post to 25p, but often used for slomo (50i behaves very much like like 50 fps footage for slomo too).

I've DOP:d some red shoots (didn't operate), and done enough post with it to know a little about it - right now i'm working on the visual effects for a theatrical feature that was shot on red one.
 
Just for fun, here's 50p, converted from 50i original:
http://eki.pp.fi/digivideo/HV20Detail/50p_test.mov

And here's the same clip at 50% slomo:
http://eki.pp.fi/digivideo/HV20Detail/25p_slomo_test.mov

50i footage, slightly scaled and rotated - properly de-interlaced by editing software:
DeInterlaced_scaled_rotated.png


The same, but the editing software is forced to treat 50i footage as 25p:
Interlaced_scaled_rotated.png
 
CraigWB said:
… especially when you consider that 50i is treated more or less like 25p when it's in your system anyway.
Click to expand...

Not even a modern flat is treating it the same: 50i is normally de-interlaced to 50 distinct frames per second, so the higher temporal resolution is preserved. Otherwise all video (news, sports, soaps) would look like 25p – but they don't !
 
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