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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Color Grading Monitor

Economy of scales

Economy of scales

mmost said:
I often wish people here would stop looking at things in terms of their cost and whether they can personally afford them for their own personal use. Professional specialty equipment - like monitors that are accurate enough for reliable color work - costs what it costs.
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Sorry Mike, I don't agree.
This used to be the case but now the little companies like Ecinema, TV Logic and such are nowhere near the advancement of Samsung, LG or Panasonic.
The reason is simply because of the market size that they (LG and such)are requires huge resources and pace of advancement that is much accelerated compared to the little specialty guys.
I'm sure that if I compared 50" , 240 Hz, 50,000:1 contrast ratio(as false as that claim may be) Samsung Consumer display that costs, uhm, $5000 or less i get better experience that any of the specialty guy that use ND(!) or RGB LED to improve older mainstream LCDs. And no fancy presentation or price tag on them can change that.
my two pennies,
Jacek Zakowicz, OptiTek:wink:
 
OptiTek said:
Sorry Mike, I don't agree.
This used to be the case but now the little companies like Ecinema, TV Logic and such are nowhere near the advancement of Samsung, LG or Panasonic.
The reason is simply because of the market size that they (LG and such)are requires huge resources and pace of advancement that is much accelerated compared to the little specialty guys.
I'm sure that if I compared 50" , 240 Hz, 50,000:1 contrast ratio(as false as that claim may be) Samsung Consumer display that costs, uhm, $5000 or less i get better experience that any of the specialty guy that use ND(!) or RGB LED to improve older mainstream LCDs. And no fancy presentation or price tag on them can change that.
my two pennies,
Jacek Zakowicz, OptiTek:wink:
Click to expand...

And I don't necessarily agree with this statement either. I understand the limitations of my TVLogic and I work within them. But consumer displays have a world of issues as well. They tend to muck with the signal to make them look "better" and consistency is not always a top priority. Sure, you may find some that work well, or well enough and that is okay. But, Mike is spot on.

There is a need for precisely calibrated monitoring, just like you have in the audio mixing world. Precise can be subjective, but it can also be technically attainable based on standards. It's tough enough having a thousand variables for how a finished program may eventually be displayed, so getting it "right" upfront is critical. That's where the experience part takes place. You have to know how to judge not only what you see in your CC suite, but also what you anticipate it will look like when broadcast in a number of distribution formats. You need a monitoring chain that can give you the best chance of success.

Now, I have seen good CC done in bad suites, and bad CC done in good suites. So, it's not the equipment that is the only factor. Combining the right equipment with a seasoned colorist will give your program a good chance for success. I am always in awe of what the high end pros are able to do with CC. And usually I am more impressed with the actual balancing as opposed to creating a wacky look. Getting a scene to match flawlessly, especially when the source material is inconsistent is a real art to watch. When you are in with a good colorist you sometimes feel like you are watching a magician. It's pretty incredible. They have a tremendous understanding of color, and they have snapshot color memory, where they can store an image in their mind and match shots to it.

Now having said all that, you can use affordable technology and get good results. But if you do, you probably also have talent and can workaround limitations. There's no magic solution. The good ones just find ways to be...good.
 
OptiTek said:
Sorry Mike, I don't agree.
This used to be the case but now the little companies like Ecinema, TV Logic and such are nowhere near the advancement of Samsung, LG or Panasonic.
The reason is simply because of the market size that they (LG and such)are requires huge resources and pace of advancement that is much accelerated compared to the little specialty guys.
I'm sure that if I compared 50" , 240 Hz, 50,000:1 contrast ratio(as false as that claim may be) Samsung Consumer display that costs, uhm, $5000 or less i get better experience that any of the specialty guy that use ND(!) or RGB LED to improve older mainstream LCDs. And no fancy presentation or price tag on them can change that.
my two pennies,
Jacek Zakowicz, OptiTek:wink:
Click to expand...

I should also clarify, that if you are indicating that these monitors from Samsung, LG and Panasonic are useful for complimenting the high end broadcast monitors, then I do agree with your statement. And perhaps with the technology on the horizon, we will see a shift towards consumer displays reaching a higher accuracy and critical status. I just don't think they are here yet.
 
Gigo

Gigo

stevesherrick said:
And I don't necessarily agree with this statement either. I understand the limitations of my TVLogic and I work within them. But consumer displays have a world of issues as well. They tend to muck with the signal to make them look "better" and consistency is not always a top priority. Sure, you may find some that work well, or well enough and that is okay. But, Mike is spot on.
Click to expand...

Means garbage in garbage out. The reason these consumer displays have heavy signal processing is because the signal quality is usually garbage. A good quality signal on these displays looks simply magical. All 10 bit color BTW. I went ot CES this year and, while there were no break throughs some displays with LCD tech or DLP looked amazing. It's advancing very fast and CES gives a peek into what's ahead.
Jacek Zakowicz, Optitek
 
OptiTek said:
Means garbage in garbage out. The reason these consumer displays have heavy signal processing is because the signal quality is usually garbage. A good quality signal on these displays looks simply magical. All 10 bit color BTW. I went ot CES this year and, while there were no break throughs some displays with LCD tech or DLP looked amazing. It's advancing very fast and CES gives a peek into what's ahead.
Jacek Zakowicz, Optitek
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I always keep an open mind, so I am open to exploring these new technologies as they come along. I guess what I am arguing for is the engineering that goes into keeping a good facility optimal, meaning calibrating as often as needed, making sure you're always watching an optimal signal, getting things repaired when they are not working at 100%, etc. What makes a good monitoring setup for HD mastering?

Accurate black levels
Accurate color representation within the Rec709 spec
Lack of glare
Proper viewing environment
Wide viewing axis
High quality cabling
Calibrated HD scopes
Reference material

And some things I'm sure I'm leaving out.
 
mmost said:
I often wish people here would stop looking at things in terms of their cost and whether they can personally afford them for their own personal use. Professional specialty equipment - like monitors that are accurate enough for reliable color work - costs what it costs. One needs to look at their work as a business in order to really understand these pricing structures. In a business, the cost of anything is only relevant to what it can generate in terms of revenue. So if using professional equipment will allow you to do work for clients that are demanding of that kind of accuracy, and who expect you to be using this level of equipment, it can be said that the equipment is justified because it gives you the ability to generate that kind of work. If something costs $1 million, but can help to generate $2 million, then the cost is justified. If it costs $20 but can't generate more than $5, it's not justified. The price tag alone has no bearing on its true business value. Of course, if one looks at the production and post production world as a hobby, or as personal investment, this may not apply. But at the same time, one should not expect the specialty equipment needed and used by high end professionals in any industry to come down to commodity levels when there isn't a large consumer market for them.
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Totally, that's why I started it with "I wish". I sort of wanted to post here so I would be subscribed in case the conversation continued. This is an other area of great concern for me and something I need to get serious about if I am going to grade this feature. Of course I am hoping for a bit of budget left over from sky replacement and particle animation VFXs to hopefully have a pro do a once or twice over squeezing a bit more out of it in ways I wouldn't know how... and for better uniformity and anything other magic I couldn't manage. I may be green but not blind.

I am trying to find out what's the best way to spend the budget... we will need a monitor for me on set, and perhaps buying it and holding on to it though pre production and post then selling it might be best.

I am hoping for a 24" but this isn't the biggest issue... I am certain on the 1920 x 1080 spec though as I need to check for focus properly and that will be my output. I know too little about Blu-Ray and NTSC in terms of contrast but I work with histograms already... anywho... I'lll shut up and catch up on the new pages of the thread.

Thank you for all of you guys who know the subject for posting and explaining things!
 
Ok I caught up... is there any way we could get a breakdown of the monitor options from one of you more in the know guys?

I agree that there are huge benefits from things like the $1k box and some of the more inexpensive monitors... getting it close it very important and valuable as it not only can give you something that you can show to get it picked up for distribution and redo the grading, and or other aspects such as the edit,score, sound design, ADR, etc... and just from getting it close you can turn a limited amount of time you can afford with a pro colorist and end up with a "near perfect" if not "perfect" quality... it could certainly make all the difference for your project.

I am not 100% about what sort of workflow I'd adopt, it would greatly depend on the post house I would be planning to work with, but I am sure there has to be some sort of way. If they want the job they will help you make sure you don't waste your efforts in a workflow that they won't be able to pick up and run with when you are ready to go to them. I am not saying it would be simple, but there has to be a workable solution for this sort of scenario... and I would love to know what it is, especially if you are a freelancer in the Valley. :)

That CDL or whatever the name will be for it sure would help a lot if it got settled soon... any care to briefly speculate on what a realistic timeline for that might be?
 
The Panasonic works fine for us given the budget we've got to work with. (It was the best for the money when we bought it a couple of years ago.)

mmost said:
We tried the Panasonic 24 inch, but found that in a color correction environment - a proper color correction environment, with low level lighting of the proper color temperature and proper gray walls - the lightness of the blacks and their inability to cleanly define low level detail made it unacceptable. There was less of this tendency with the JVC, although ultimately, we stayed with CRT's because it was far superior to either of them. One of the characteristics of LCD's is that they tend to look more accurate in higher level lighting, especially the blacks (being a transmissive technology, the always present ambient level of the backlight through the LCD mask is more noticeable when the ambient light in the room is lower). The problem is that a traditional color correction environment doesn't have that, so the problems and limitations become more magnified as the ambient light is dimmed. If you're working in a room that is more typical of an editing environment, with more ambient light, the problems are minimized, but so is the ability of a colorist to make critical color determinations. This is less of an issue with emissive technologies, like CRT's and plasmas, but the problem with most plasmas is that the color gamut is not accurate for Rec 709 work - which is what almost all color correction that is not for a film DI is done in these days.
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Rowland said:
There's a new Panasonic monitor that may be of some interest:

Link-->Panasonic Monitor
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Now that looks interesting.

To throw my hat in:

I have been correcting to Sony CRT's for as long as I have needed to delivery speck'ed product. I have yet to have a complaint. That being said display tech is changing fast. Mitsubishi has a new laser tv. Sony's got one thats thinner than a pack of cards. Somewhere in there are better specs. Get em consistent and get a client base.
 
After last IBC I'm positive.
OLED. Period.
 
flameop said:
but who is making them? :-/
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Sony had that little 11" XEL-1 on display, which seemed to pass unnoticed by majority at the booth.
 
I'm famliar with some of the monitors discussed here. The Panasonic 2600 blacks are blue, the JVC 24 has high reflective glass, and with the Ecinema DCM, you have to be centered to it, otherwise no blacks. Sony's BVM230 has blue black. Right now my advise is to buy the least expenssive monitor and wait for the new technologies to come (and for prices to drop)
 
Man, the XEL-1 looks pretty impressive! I wonder if it really DOES have a 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio...

Those seem like they'd be worth it once they have a 20 or 30 inch model.
 
Sony has a 22' OLED version as well but it's for Post-Production Facilities only. The Heat Sinks aren't appropriate for location work as the monitor produces alot of heat. They won't even sell it to you unless they are going into AC controlled Studio.

I use DataColor Spyder Pro 3 for Calibrating my Cinema Display's and Laptop. Also remember that DVI is only 8-bit. HDMI is 10 bit but currently the only way to get 10bit Color is using a BlueFish, Decklink, or Nvidia SDI graphics card.

This is why I had to pass on the amazing HP DreamColor.
 
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