Another fear...

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

What if:
*You could trade in your R1 for a Scarlet plus accesories for 17.500? (if specs remain as is, in terms it succeeds the R1 )
*You could trade in your R1 for an EPIC FF35 for the price the sensor upgrade is? (17.500 plus whatever the price the sensor upgrade is)

 

[Casey Green]

...When you show up with a Scarlet, they'll say "get that thing out of here and get me the real camera." That's fine, there will always be those productions...

I find this statement a bit off base. Any of the RED S35 (5K) and up Cameras will be considered Pro Cinema in my book (and I think throughout most of the industry).

Brook, I think sometimes you have a bit too many "fears". It's still early yet. I'm confident the issues you are concerned with will work themselves out.

 

[Craig Ryan]

I don't agree with the notion of making all the Scarlet sensors Mysterium X, and all Epic Monstro. "Real frame rates cost real money". Epic is the answer to frame rates here. The FFScalet will allow lower budget productions who don't need all the bells and whistles of an FFEpic to get just as great of a cinematography tool. It's a base, bottom line version of the sensor. Here we are simply seeing the result of the cost that comes with high FPS at extremely high resolutions (Epic).

The s35 Epic and Epic X do seem kinda out of place right now, what with Scarlet s35mm being estimated to roll out first, and potentially talking a lot of that market. But without the Epic s35, that would leave in a hole for high speed s35. I guess I mostly agree with the idea of calling the Epic models the high speed models, and the Scarlets as the standard. It all makes the most sense.

I agree that for most/all of the big budget RED productions, EPIC will be king obviously. I think those going to invest in an EPIC need to realize that its meant for the big boys, so if you're going to make a living off renting your camera, it might be wise to know who your market is, as Tom said. See what happens, adjust accordingly.

I understand full well from a marketing position why some would like the separations of the lines to be clear cut and dry...but that just sounds like what we've been dealing with forever already. Let RED mix up the market and shake things up...

/end long winded recap of what everyone else said :innocent:

 

[donatello b]

IMO hollywood type ( as in they service film/high high/med budgets) rental houses are going with EPIC monstro $33k plus, and they have high end lens to supply their current customers...bottom line for them 33k is CHEAP compared to what is now sitting on their shelfs.. they are not going to try to compete in the camera's costing 10k and under rental market ( they might have a few scarlets for crash cams , under water etc) ..

the no/low budgets will be be serviced by owner types ( DP/Dit) or the producer will just buy a scarlet for the project ( whatever is cheaper) - they then have choice to rent low to med $$ lens ...

for non hollywood - well you'll have to decide what your clients will rent ... 4 - 11k camera ?? or do they really need the 33k ?
for high end projects 600-1200 day difference is not going to matter ... low end =it matters ... all budgets between those ?? you'll have to decide (based on your clients)?
perhaps ONE camera is not going to fit ALL your needs ???

for Brook ( specific) i say forget the X scarlet/epic ... go Epic FF monstro .. stay out of the low budgets ... 645 is a option = IMO buy 1 with a few other working DP's and share it for those special shoots when needed...

 

[mikeburton]

Brook, I would expect to see even more changes in RED's plan until they say, this is it, we are going into production on this. And even then, things will change. I think its great to speculate and discuss the options as they lie right now but I think we all know that its a game time decision that will be made once we know what is actually shipping out the doors, when you will be slated to receive your gear and what those current price/specs will be then.

 

[Raul Gonzo]

My point is that the Scarlet will cannibalize the Epic market to the point that the Epic is simply a high-speed camera with a few extra features. [/i]

This seems to be what Jim has been stressing about.
He is really trying to get this point across:

Real frame rates ... cost real money.

Jim

And there it is.

 

[Brook Willard]

I find this statement a bit off base. Any of the RED S35 (5K) and up Cameras will be considered Pro Cinema in my book (and I think throughout most of the industry).

I assure you that's not the way I'm thinking. I just know there are some cranky old guys out there who would let those words past their lips...

Brook, I think sometimes you have a bit too many "fears". It's still early yet. I'm confident the issues you are concerned with will work themselves out.

You know, that's a good point to make. When I make threads like these, I want to make sure people know I'm not just sitting at home in the fetal position, rocking myself as I reload these threads. I know the issues aren't that big or bad and I know that may of my suggestions are wild and absurd and unnecessary. I do make the threads for myself, of course, but I largely make them to get the discussion started... to get people thinking about things from a perspective that they may not have had. In turn, once the discussion starts, I get to see things from a perspective that I might not have thought about beforehand.

So fear not - I'm not trying to piss on anybody's parade or say that I know better than all. I just like involving people in my streams of consciousness... because a lot of the time, some really cool things come out of it.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

What I think we're forgetting here is that RED is a business and Jim is a down right genius business man.

I'm sure that Jim knows that the Scarlet FF35 DSMC is going to be the bread & butter of where RED's revenue comes in from along with the 8X fixed lens Scarlet model.

Next in revenue will be the Epic FF35 with all other models following in as just specialty purchases.

Simply put, if you offer an affordable FF35 Scarlet Monstro at $10,000 it will undoubtedly sell more units and bring in much, much more revenue than a specialty purchase such as the Epic FF or 645.

Perfect example, Ford vs. Ferrari......

RED isn't concerned with the rental market, it makes it's money from sales.

My 2c.

With that being said, me and my 645 are ready for a gunfight that no Scarlet can handle.

 

[Casey Green]

I assure you that's not the way I'm thinking. I just know there are some cranky old guys out there who would let those words past their lips...

...and there always will be. ;-)

So fear not - I'm not trying to piss on anybody's parade or say that I know better than all. I just like involving people in my streams of consciousness... because a lot of the time, some really cool things come out of it.

Understood, no worries.

And I agree with others... I'm sure things will change a bit (spec wise) before everything is said and done.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

The RED camera private owner/rental market is for the birds as of right now, there are people undercutting each other left & right.

You wouldn't believe how many, will work for free or $500 a day ads/offers I've heard in the past 6 months.

You've really got to establish a strong client basis and have the knowledge/skill to keep your clients, it's always been that way.

 

[J. Eric Camp]

As unpopular as it seems to be...

If I could go back in time and be involved with the planning of the DSMC cameras I would have pushed for exactly what Brook has suggested.

I would have suggested that the Scarlets, from 2/3" to FF35 would be X sensors. Already a "better" sensor than the Mysterium sensor at RC36 that we are now so familiar with. More DR, less compressed. RED would still be offering an amazing new camera at an amazing price, like they have done from day one.

If Scarlets where X sensors and Epics where Monstros then the line in the sand would be clear and many of us wouldn't look so confused right now. The Ferraris and Fords comment made before would then truly hold water. It is how I would build things.

Many will be happy to know that I was not involved and that Jim clearly thinks differently than I do.

Now, I know that this current discussion, while worth while, is very preemptive. We are debating prototypes which may or may not exist, with out seeing images, final production specs or the "check mate" that Jim has hinted at. So take this all with a grain of salt. THINGS WILL CHANGE, count on it.

Rental houses are not in any real danger as I see it. They will get a ton of modules and an assortment of brains, say 1 or 2 2/3" Scarlets, 1 or 2 S35 Scarlets, 4 FF35 Scarlets, 2 FF35 Epics and 1 645. They will make their money.

Owner operators have much more risk in this. Look, I work on "big boy" stuff. But not everyday. I came off a Majors contract and went on a tier 1. VERY few people only live in "big boy" world. Most of us have to bounce back a forth. These are the people at "risk." I think the final reality is, if you are a twilighter like myself, (a little day, a little night) you get an EPIC. You charge for it when the "big boys" call and you compete with the Scarlets when they don't.

Your R1 was 18k, but you spent lets say.... 35k.

Thats 17k in aks. If a Scarlet is going to compete with an EPIC then it needs the same modules. Lets call new aks 15k. Remember, new bricks, charger, riser, top mounts, shoulder rig, media, i/o, mote etc. The S-FF35 is the real sleeper so:

9,750
+15
$24,750

The E-FF35:

33k
+ 15k (modules)
48k

The modules close the gap.

$9,750 is roughly 1/3 of $33,000

$24,750 is just under 1/2 of $48,000

Don't just think of it as brain versus brain, its package on package.

At this point I am sure I am rambling, whit out hesitating and with out re-reading my words I will simply hit "post quick reply" (which this is only two of the three)

 

[Casey Green]

I would have suggested that the Scarlets, from 2/3" to FF35 would be X sensors. Already a "better" sensor than the Mysterium sensor at RC36 that we are now so familiar with. More DR, less compressed. RED would still be offering an amazing new camera at an amazing price, like they have done from day one.

If Scarlets where X sensors and Epics where Monstros then the line in the sand would be clear and many of us wouldn't look so confused right now.

That sounds more like how Sony, JVC, Panasonic, and Canon operate.

I like the DSMC options just fine as they are.

 

[jaadgy akanni]

That sounds more like how Sony, JVC, Panasonic, and Canon operate.

I like the DSMC options just fine as they are.

It would be a real disappointment to see Jim change the promised specs just to satisfy the personal/professional needs of some,while depriving the rest of us. It's just not the kind of man I've come to know Jim to be. I admire the fact that so far, Jim just gives us the best he can give us.

 

[Mariusz Cichon]

It seems that everybody I talked to that owns R1 camera now wants Epic FF35 and not S35 that is weak model. Hopefully S35 won't be released and more energy will be put to release fully functional better Epic FF35
My 2c

 

[Nick Wolf]

To win the war sacrifices must be made ... I see this New-Gen as a Fleet rather than a simple Product Line ... Ultimate manuverablity is beyond a non linear concept ( :Lets just leave it at that: )

Brook=It won`t make sence untill later on down the river when all the streams meet up again, Have faith :sorcerer:

This is a very big picture indeed that requires more than taking "A single step back"

I would say a key word to keep in mind to harness the current we are being presented with is "Trust" = Without it we will be simply treading water/standing still = Paralized By Fear ...

ONWARD!


DogDay.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

I have no doubt whatsoever that the Scarlet S35 and FF36 will reduce Epic sales by at least 25-30%.

My personal opinion: Scarlet models should not have been designed beyond 2/3" chips.

But that's just me.

Right now I am seriously considering staying with my RED, and picking up a Scarlet FF35. It's a ways to go..

Brook, your fears are well founded.

This is a new area for RED, and a lot of camera companies fight this battle all the time. There is always danger of the lower end stock crowding out the higher end stock.

Panasonic has this problem often.

Jim says stuff is subject to change.. I am sure as he reads these forums, and realizes that more people than they want are moving over to Scarlet and not Epics, then they may have to relook at this.

It's also possible that Jim is VERY well aware of what we're all talking about. It's possible he does not expect a lot of Epic sales. It's possible the hot seller is expected to be Scarlet. They have to sell a lot of cameras, and the S35 scarlets are sure to sell like hotcakes. So perhaps, while RED has not done the best thing for the professional market, they HAVE done the best thing for the their business. Which is to move a lot of stock.

For us R1 owners, he's trying to give us the best of both worlds. Scarlet pricing, with EPIC features.

Brook you're right... But I think they've thought this out.

Jay

 

[Leo Ticheli]

I'm not so sure the S35 Scarlet will be the big seller, unless the FF35 Scarlet is significantly delayed.

For a very small difference in price, there is a huge difference in quality between the Mysterium X and Monstro sensors.

Frankly, I see no reason for the existence of the Mysterium X sensors at all, except in 2/3" Scarlets.

Let's be honest; would any of us favor saving a small amount of money over the vastly superior Monstro?

If Red were to offer the upgrade to the Epic X package with a Monstro sensor (probably the FF35 Brain), even at a higher price, say an extra 5K, would we not jump all over it?

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

My concern is whether regarding to the estimated release dates of the different setups, how fast will postproduction catch up with these new models,
because this could become the real pita if some are supported and some not because of data moving around.

My second biggest concern is , if you we'd use the mostro ships if we would be allowed to change the redcode quality aswell if we're forced because our editing and grading suites could'nt handle it already.

This could be a second reason why the ff35or s35 could eat up the epics in the very beginning, resulting in higher priced systems staying on the shelf at rental companies, and cheaper systems gaining market because it would get the familiar camera of the mass...

Time is important , and high quality codecs combined with a lack of support and higher priced systems could ruin your business when you would try to achieve the best quality because of purism and the intention to do this as it should be done... but not anybody cares about more quality when finances gain more...

 

[J. Eric Camp]

Before the natives get upset....

I didn't say I wanted Jim to change or cripple the cameras announced. I said that I would have designed, at the conception stage, different specs for personal reasons.

Everyone who is vehemently defending the way the cameras are now is staring directly at the S-FF35. As you should be.
(and a majority might not own R1's)

Again, no specs, no frames, not real yet so.... we are all using our imaginations....

However as it appears, the S-FF35 is the flagship. I think Leo had the best plan I have heard thus far.

Get the Epic - X package and your free modules. Buy a S-FF35 along with all the other new toys. The S-FF35 becomes your primary camera and the S35-X is your back up and high speed body.

It's a solid plan, although an example of the "gender bending" between Scarlet and Epic.

To recap.
I am not criticizing the DSMC line up, anyone who wants which ever camera they want, Jim or RED. I am simply making conversation in a, "I would have put the cup holder here because that suits my needs/tastes" fashion.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Sometimes this stuff is tough for Jim cause he thinks "Jesus, I cannot make these friggin people happy no matter what I do"

We are happy... Damn happy. And a lot of us are happy RED One owners.

We just love to talk/write... That's all

Jay