The big choice: Epic S35 or FF35...

[Stephen Williams]

EPIC FF35 is the one that all the film people really want.

Hi,

They would rather have a S35 Monstro, which at present RED does not offer. I would expect that option to become available once all the orders for FF35 Monstro have been fulfilled.

Stephen

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

Actually that does not sum up anything.

Have any 1 even tried filming FF 24fps? tried pulling focus wide open (hard enough on s35) where is the need? - to repeat myself. Improved DR + less compression and "even" 4k is enough to kill film in most cases.

In my country (Denmark) where one of the biggest posts is film stock, development and scanning - film is dying rapidly - because of RED. I even think we have the highest ratio of Red cam´s pr citizen. (maybe our brother country Norway is a little bit ahead)

If epics35 cannot have monstro. And scarlet will have a 6k version monstro-

Who wants a Red1 or Epic S35 - and yeah yeah Scarlett will have limitations compared to RED1 and Epic - still 6k monstro. But seriously who will want it ?- so they get a 3 months head start? c´mon.. we all waited years for the RED1 now we have it - ill gladly wait 2 years for a "monstro" - i just dont need the FF. I need and crave s35 monstro.

maybe only "7k" but next year again after Epicff35 guess what? SuperWonder Epic with even more "k´s" and larger chips, we dont need to make film. but hey - that will also only be 7k more.... and 7k and 7k...

Im all for RED, but please dont force me to buy a "ferrari" when all i need is a nice fast "porche".

(cause in the end we all know, we all want a "monstro" chip in our RED´s)

 

[FMG battery]

Hi,

They would rather have a S35 Monstro, which at present RED does not offer. I would expect that option to become available once all the orders for FF35 Monstro have been fulfilled.

Stephen

ehehehehehe

that's why i read you.. all your posts i must confess.. :blush:

seems clear now you read mine too even if you do not confess..

edit
well.. you do not confess so often.. :biggrin:

 

[david farland]

You have to look at this a bit from Red's perspective.
1. Firstly they need to honour the people who have a RedOne and don't wish to upgrade. There would be (expensive) ways around this and I'm sure Jim has sliced/diced it but anyway the outcry would be significant.
The Monstro technology wouldn't work in R1 anyway so there is a need for a less beast to inhabit R1....Mysterium-X.
2. Next believe it or not there are actually people out there who don't have a R1. Yep..it's true..in this modern age, whole villages even.
Now Jim needs to sell to them with an emminent product. Obviously this should be as modern as possible and if possible pave the way for his future plan for them....The Epic body/accessories. The S35 satisifies both the R1 upgrade and start of the Epic line.
3. Monstro technology is proved but still a little way from commercial application. This takes it all up a notch. Latitude/frame rate and bigger sensors for a range of reasons, not the least a larger sensor is necessary for achieving a pure 4K in the chrominance arena (R1=2.7k).
4. Okay larger sensors require larger glass and Jim does want/need to break into the FF35 glass market, particularly as there is no cheap cine glass to support his Epic range.

so good luck getting him to break with all this. The only thing I see is sympathetic upgrade subsidies.
D

 

[FMG battery]

You have to look at this a bit from Red's perspective.
1. Firstly they need to honour the people who have a RedOne and don't wish to upgrade.

honour nonor.. oster_oops: honor.. where do you think you live?.. 18th century?

 

[Jason Ing]

Nice find... that was back when Epic was one camera body that sold for $40K. If you want to pay that price, I'll honor the upgrade.

Jim

This is very true.

Everyone expects Jim to be true to his "word" and yet I don't hear everyone complaining that the price dropped from $40k.

Jim has always been honorable and is good for his word. He said something within a context. He changed that context because it benefited the camera and therefore the "majority" of customers. I can see the wisdom in the design and route that Jim is taking.

 

[Jason Ing]

Jim,

If you're still reading and not thorougly disgusted yet and left RedUser for good, I have a hypothetical question:

What if Red One didn't exist, but you had all the knowledge and real world experience of the Red One and the benefit of the "brain bank" of RedUser forum (the smart, experienced users, that is). So with all that, you came up with Scarlett and Epic.

Would you design the Red One differently? (Because it seems like Red One would become an "entry level" Epic) If so, isn't it better to discontinue the Red One considering the superior modular design? (although I know it's your baby and you would still support existing owners like me)

 

[Stephen Williams]

Would you design the Red One differently? (Because it seems like Red One would become an "entry level" Epic) If so, isn't it better to discontinue the Red One considering the superior modular design? (although I know it's your baby and you would still support existing owners like me)

Hi,

There would be no need for a RED one, it's old technology relative to Scarlet or Epic. I am sure that once the new cameras ship, Red one sales will drop to zero unless the price is halved.

Stephen

 

[bobaandy]

Not necessarily. Remember it still has all the extra features that Scarlet doesn't. It also has more people who know how to use it, and the reputation by now.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Not necessarily. Remember it still has all the extra features that Scarlet doesn't. It also has more people who know how to use it, and the reputation by now.

Some of the features have been fixed on scarlet, such as slow boot up time. Generally features (gimmicks) are fairly unimportant, just DR & how the images look.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Is Red saying that they simply will not put a Monstro in S35, or are they asking people to be patient, or keeping quiet on the issue? I have not kept up 100% on this.

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

Jason,

I agree with everything you said about Jim.

But the Epic s35 is 28k for brain ONLY. I assume you need power module, connector module, recording module adaptor... the total could easily be 40k? if i am not mistaken that is....

Hey i love RED. I love my RED 1. I love that the RED team is pushing ahead technology to unknown limits BUT I still think the average RED 1 owner is in fact an "average Joe" with his own company working in the film biz.

The upgrade offer is absolutely amazing an unheard of, but you still have to look at the economics vs need vs Return of investment.

The happy rental days are over. RED is not backordered anymore and the rental companies can fill their stocks up immediately - meaning that people who have had a deal with rental houses renting out their R1 wont be able to that anymore. ENTER SCARLET 6k. ENTER EPIC Monstro.

And how many can realistically afford another 17.500- plus modules - for an epic ff35 when your rental prices are not going up. The only thing that is going to happen is your R1 rates are going down.

I understand its not red´s problem if people can afford an epic or not, but fact is alot of R1 owners would be Scarlet 5k/6k owners if they had a choice now. instead theres like a R1 vacuum now. No way can you explain a client that a 4k camera is better than a 6k camera, even if there are some limitations.

I am not addressing Jim or RED particularly here, I am just laying it down as I see it. I think the brain scheme is great. I just wish there would be a s35 monstro Epic. I just want my own 35mm digital camera.

Epic monstro would be that (or close enough). And lets all admit that was why we bought a RED in the first place. We want to do what color film stock did to black and white film stock. we want to replace film.

I might be wrong about all this, maybe Red1 sales and reservations have been stable since the announcement. Maybe people are not thinking maybe i shouldnt buy pl glass because it wont fit the whole FF sensor. Maybe all this doesnt matter - i dont know.

I just know I need better DR and less compression (ok higher framerates an added and appreciated bonus)

 

[FMG battery]

Hi,

There would be no need for a RED one, it's old technology relative to Scarlet or Epic. I am sure that once the new cameras ship, Red one sales will drop to zero unless the price is halved.

Stephen

if you were not right here i would say to you that you hate those two words correct?.. red one.. i bet.. probably not today.. but it stole you some hours of restless sleep..

 

[Jason Ing]

But the Epic s35 is 28k for brain ONLY. I assume you need power module, connector module, recording module adaptor... the total could easily be 40k? if i am not mistaken that is....

Well, technically you can use Red One battery's and plug it into the epic. which isn't as sweet a setup as using an epic battery that will fit perfectly on the epic body and make it look even cooler.

And Red accessories are historically reasonably priced and not that expensive (the red production pack is half the cost if you were to try and piece together one through third party sources). So I'm not sure you would have to pay $12k more to get the Epic up and running if you already own a Red One. We'll have to wait and see, but I think it will be far less.

 

[Jim Exton]

Not necessarily. Remember it still has all the extra features that Scarlet doesn't. It also has more people who know how to use it, and the reputation by now.

I think a lot of people are going to be happy with 5k at 30fps.

There are a lot of feature films that don't need to do more than that, in that case the Red One is going to be more money for unwanted features and less resolution and dynamic range.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

They would rather have a S35 Monstro, which at present RED does not offer. I would expect that option to become available once all the orders for FF35 Monstro have been fulfilled.

Then I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I can see where people may think they want an S35 Monstro version. But I fail to see what it would actually offer except for a potentially lower price at the expense of less sensor area. And I'm willing to bet that the cost savings would be minimal or even none at all.

Even for those who plan to keep PL mounted glass on their EPIC 99% of the time, the FF35 size still makes the most sense for shooting anamorphics and other FX work. Custom frame sizes would theoretically allow for portrait oriented shooting without turning the camera on its side.

Perhaps I'm just confused as to why the desire for S35 Monstro. The only reason I think is that people are requesting it under the assumption that it may save a few $$ instead of paying a full $7K more for the FF35 Monstro over the S35 Mysterium-X model. And I believe that reasoning to be flawed.

 

[Bing Bailey]

I don't think the recording , power and io is going to add up to another 12k , that stuff is usable across all brains. if it was that expensive it'll make a joke of scarlet which making the cheapest scarlet cost 15k without a lens. that would absolutely kill what red is trying to do and would make a joke of 3k for 3k

 

[Jim Exton]

Perhaps I'm just confused as to why the desire for S35 Monstro. The only reason I think is that people are requesting it under the assumption that it may save a few $$ instead of paying a full $7K more for the FF35 Monstro over the S35 Mysterium-X model. And I believe that reasoning to be flawed.

Yes.

The FF35 is going to make a nice Super 35mm and anamorphic camera.

 

[Joseph Ward]

Perhaps I'm just confused as to why the desire for S35 Monstro. The only reason I think is that people are requesting it under the assumption that it may save a few $$ instead of paying a full $7K more for the FF35 Monstro over the S35 Mysterium-X model. And I believe that reasoning to be flawed.

I agree with you. Maybe, people think they would save $2K?

Scarlet FF35(Monstro) - Scarlet S35(Mysterium X) = $5K Sensor Difference
Then, Epic S35(Mysterium X)$28K + $5k(Sensor Difference)= Epic S35 Monstro $33K
Now,
Epic FF35 Monstro= $35K -
Epic S35 Monstro= $33K = $2K

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

I'm suddenly wondering if I'm thinking of this all wrong. We have two R1s. How often do we shoot faster than 30FPS, anyway? In our case, almost never. So, I wonder if it makes more sense to just buy a Scarlet FF35 that only does 30fps and then keep around a Mysterium-X upgraded RED One for specialty shots requiring ramping, higher frame rates, etc.? No need to buy an Epic at all!

Two questions would then remain:

1. What will REDCode 225 give us that REDCode 42 doesn't?

2. How well will the look from a FF35 Monstro chip cut with a Mysterium-X RED One?

If the answers are "I doubt if you could ever tell the difference," then PERHAPS it really does make more sense to buy a Scarlet.

This is intriguing. . . I'm going to do some more math on this.

Stephen