The big choice: Epic S35 or FF35...

[Pawel Achtel]

100%. I want the FF35 badly.

However ... I predict that Offhollywood will be shooting movies on the Epic S35 while hundreds kick and scream that the FF35 is ... more than three months after the FF35 ...

Just sayin ...

hehehe, or hundreds will be waiting patiently for a few months until Offhollywood concludes testing of Epic...

Just sayin...:innocent:

 

[david farland]

Mark,
Nice if you can do that.
I guess your business model works paying $28k per camera for 1 stop/1K rez for a few months on a beta camera.
I just hope the other 5000 red camera owner don't play the 'left to die' card, two weeks after the S35 goes live, as they realise they can't afford to pay $28k for an incremental upgrade they were promised anyway. But still, admire your guts and I'm sure Jim will too!
D

 

[Leo Ticheli]

Upon further review; why Full-Frame?

Upon further review; why Full-Frame?

After the thrill over the plethora of promised offerings from Red, I've developed some doubts about the value of the Full-Frame options.

Why Full-Frame? For whom is this really useful? For motion pictures, it seems to me that there should be only 3 formats:

1. 3/4" for news/documentary, run and gun productions where smaller size and weight are paramount. This is a huge market segment with a ton of existing lenses ready to go to work.

2. Traditional S35MM for commercials and features. This has the depth of field that is esthetically pleasing and uses the lenses now in existence. This is a large market.

3. The 645. This is very specialized. For big screen features and applications where extremely shallow depth of field is desirable. Much more flexible than those huge IMAX cameras. I think this is a very small market. Very, very small.

Frankly, I don't see the new Full Frame Reds as being that viable for stills photographers; they are very expensive and probably not as highly refined as the mature products from Canon and Nikon. I'm certain that convergence will continue apace, but I have no idea how large this market is for the near term.

Let's face it, what we motion picture people really want is a S35MM Red with the Monstro sensor to enjoy the significantly greater dynamic range. I'll bet the great majority of us who are leaning toward the FF Epic are so inclined simply to get the Monstro, not the larger chip.

Admittedly, my head is still spinning over the Red offerings, but this is where I am at the moment. I think it helped to write it down...

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Mark Pugh]

what we motion picture people really want is a S35MM Red with the Monstro sensor to enjoy the significantly greater dynamic range.

It's clearly the most desirable sensor size and the monstro is the best sensor spec.

I'm wondering if it's less expensive and easier and quicker for red to buy off-the-shelf FF35 monstros than to manufacture S35ones, and that's the reason for the monstro only being available in the larger formats.
I can't think of another reason.

 

[Matt Uhry]

Now where'd we put the magic button that makes things come out six months early?

It would be nice, I'll press it a few time on that prime set...

Actually I was thinking just go a bit slow on shipping mass quantities of the S35 and FF35 scarlets... a first run of 100 and then a bit of a pause to see how it goes.....

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Leo Ticheli]

It's clearly the most desirable sensor size and the monstro is the best sensor spec.

I'm wondering if it's less expensive and easier and quicker for red to buy off-the-shelf FF35 monstros than to manufacture S35ones, and that's the reason for the monstro only being available in the larger formats.
I can't think of another reason.

That could well be a good guess. If so, another thought comes to mind; why produce the S35 version at all! Just for a lower price? Surely not; after all, given a choice at the rental house, who's going to save a tiny amount and give up the very superior Monstro DR?

I have a bad feeling that anyone who buys the S35 Epic is going to have a significantly less desirable camera.

When both are available, will any rental house will buy an S35?

Of course this is all just my opinion. All I really know how to do is make pretty pictures. Well, perhaps a couple of other things, but running a camera manufacturing company is not one of them. I do know what would suit my needs, however.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Mark Pugh]

When both are available, will any rental house will buy an S35?

Well, my other theory is:
The Mysterium X will be available earlier.
The only way Red thought they'd get people to buy them, was to not list an only slightly more expensive S35 monstro as being available a few months later.
And that's also why PL wasn't listed as an option as a mount on the monstros, although after a day of noise after the 13th Jarred said that PL wouldn't be a problem. Just a theory.

 

[Mark Pugh]

I'm not sure anyone's pointed out the S35 mysterium x will never do 5k in 16:9, even without any look-around area.
It's a 2:1 sensor.
The FF35 will be better for 16x9, even for PL mount 35 lenses.
The sensor area used for 16:9 could be wider, so you wouldn't need to drop resolution, even with the larger pixels.

Red should just ditch that S35 mysterium -X IMHO.
FF35 for me.

 

[Mark Pugh]

I predict that the S35 will be re-incarnated as a high speed camera.
In 16:9 it'd have less than half the pixel-count as the full frame of the FF35.
It should be able to go a fair whack faster.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Why Full-Frame? For whom is this really useful? For motion pictures, it seems to me that there should be only 3 formats:

Me and my VFX producing friends would disagree with you. I'm salivating over the EPIC FF35. Although for typical motion picture use, you are correct... I think the PL mount with S35 lenses will live on my EPIC FF35 most of the time.[/QUOTE]

 

[Mark Andersen]

It's clearly the most desirable sensor size and the monstro is the best sensor spec.

I'm wondering if it's less expensive and easier and quicker for red to buy off-the-shelf FF35 monstros than to manufacture S35ones, and that's the reason for the monstro only being available in the larger formats.
I can't think of another reason.

It seems that the Monstro has it's genesis in a DSLR thats why it's 24 x36 and why it is not yet available in S35. I agree that the FF35 seems like the best option today. I think that that larger format could give a nice athestetic with good SLR glass.

 

[Leo Ticheli]

Me and my VFX producing friends would disagree with you. I'm salivating over the EPIC FF35. Although for typical motion picture use, you are correct... I think the PL mount with S35 lenses will live on my EPIC FF35 most of the time.

[/QUOTE]

I'm quite sure that bigger is definitely better for VFX; perhaps yet another reason that the S35 Reds should be abandoned altogether.

With the FF35, we have the best of both worlds.

I guess I'm ready for someone to make a convincing argument for the Epic S35. Yes, it's a bit less expensive, but over the life of the camera it's not a compelling advantage, especially compared to the potential loss of value down the road.

Nor is the few months earlier availability of the S35 a reason to go for it unless you are a booked solid house that can afford to have it sit on the shelf when the FF35 surpasses it. Not all of us can afford the luxury of going S35 then up to FF35 although Mark's idea of going with the S35 Scarlet as a temporary "upgrade" may have some merit.

I imagine a used S35 Scarlet would have some residual value to offset the cost or to serve as a backup body.

Wheeeeeeeeeeee...

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Tom Lowe]

If FF35 can shoot with PL/S35, then you get the best of both worlds, because you can always put FF35 lenses on it as well and have a high fps Vista Vision camera!

As far as reasons why anyone would want to shoot FF35, it's not just VFX. Take a look at Ford's Epic The Searchers, which was shot on Vista Vision.

The added DR of Monstro is vital as well.

Another factor to keep in mind is that on the Scarlet side, I believe the FF35 will be dominant (if current specs stay roughly the same), because the S35 Scarlet cannot overcrank legitimately like the FF35 can. This will affect the economies of scale and tip them in the favor of FF35.

With many people here seeming to coalesce behind FF35 now, the big question is: "What about FF35 lenses?"

 

[Poi Boy]

Hey Tom, What about the Red electronic lenses, I think they will be the way to go.
Aloha
-A

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Leo, your comments raise a thought that what about if not only the sensor but also the "brain" of Red One could updated in the future?

In other words, if Red One could be updated as a 4K version of Epic S35 -say 100 fps in 4K and something like 200 fps in 2K or 3K-- and furthermore, if it were possible to get much shorter boot up time and perhaps also smaller power consumption by an upgrade, then perhaps I would not consider Epic at all.

Perhaps cost wise this would still not make sense and that's why it is not offered by Red.

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Leo, your comments raise a thought that what about if not only the sensor but also the "brain" of Red One could updated in the future?

In other words, if Red One could be updated as a 4K version of Epic S35 -say 100 fps in 4K and something like 200 fps in 2K or 3K-- and furthermore, if it were possible to get much shorter boot up time and perhaps also smaller power consumption by an upgrade, then perhaps I would not consider Epic at all.

Perhaps cost wise this would still not make sense and that's why it is not offered by Red.

Fairly unlikely to hapen imho.

Emmanuel

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The RED One is going to be offered an upgrade to the Mysterium-X. We don't know any details of the upgrade yet and what other capabilities that my bring to the camera. Given that the sensors work best with underlying electronics which are tuned to that sensor, I'm betting the upgrade will bring more to the table than just a CMOS chip swap. I'm also not expecting the upgrade to be cheap... Just cheaper than outright buying a new camera.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Hey Tom, What about the Red electronic lenses, I think they will be the way to go.
Aloha
-A

I don't know about them. What's the story on that? Are they FF35?

 

[Poi Boy]

I don't really know anything other than what is in the 11-13 stuff but you have to believe that if red specs them for FF35 they are going to be awesome and stabilized to boot ! I would imagine built in birger mount sort of functionality, I hate waiting patiently.
Aloha
-A

 

[roryhinds]

What ever happened to the free upgrade from the X to Monstro Jim talked about when he announced Monstro?

I don't get why RED are trying to reinvent the wheel.
Post is post and the workflow for 4k is getting there.
2k post has a solid standard workflow that works really well and looks amazing projected.

We need a S35 sensor that gives us great 4k, be it 5k or 6k pixel count in camera
In post we need 4k max, anything over is not supported and unworkable.

The whole Epic S35 vs FF35 is not good as I think the average RED owner (not a rental business) would hold out for FF35 as the ROI isn't there.

I really don't like that my RED will be out dated so quickly and I'll have to buy a new "Brain" to keep up. I thought the whole ethos of RED was to avoid having to buy a new camera every few months.

I think RED have missed the point and the point is POST. There are established industries and you use the right tool for the job. Once the shoot has finished you need to work with the footage.

Are RED no longer a Digital Cinema company?
If you have to toss your old "Brain" for a new one to keep up why are the "Brains" so expensive? - It just seems like a waste.

I'm a owner/operator and my view and opinion will be different to a rental house. I'm simply not as busy as a rental house and my ROI is way way slower so my purchase decisions need to be sound.

I want higher resolution but the same physical size so I can use industry standard Cinema Glass and work with the footage I shoot in an industry standard way.

I'm disappointed with the non upgradeable "Brains".