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Advice For a Future Red Owner

J

Jay_C

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Hey guys,

So me and a friend are starting to plan for a feature horror shoot next summer, and we're looking at the Red camera for this project. I just wanted to throw out a few questions here (hopefully they haven't been answered too many times in the past) to help us make the decision and figure out the reality of shooting with this camera. So here it goes:

1. How are most of you paying for your Red camera? Loans? Some sort of financing? We're currently trying to figure out the financial logistics behind purchasing a piece of equipment with such a hefty price tag. Any advice on how to approach banks? Private investors??

2. What are the bare essentials for the Red? It seems to me that we'll be looking at about 30-35 grand for a good set up. Is this realistic?

3. Editing: I've read that FCP is fine for editing Red footage. Are there any issues that will pop up down the road that have been known to give people troubles in the editing stages?

4. Being Realistic: How realistic is it to own a 35 thousand dollar camera? Should we be looking at renting? We're sort of thinking that if we owned it, we would be able to shoot more projects and spend more time getting to know the camera. Which leads to:

5. Resell value. Is it tough to resell a Red camera?

Finally,

6. How long in advance should someone put an order in for a Red camera? How long have you guys generally had to wait to receive yours?


I think that's about it. Advice in any of these areas (specifically the financing one) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your time,

Jay C
 
How realistic is it to own a $35,000 car?

How do you finance that?


If you need to ask the question, it should definitely raise some doubt...


Maybe what you are really looking for is a Scarlet?
 
Jay_C said:
1. How are most of you paying for your Red camera? Loans? Some sort of financing? Any advice on how to approach banks? Private investors??
Click to expand...

I pimped my wife out to a porn company who paid her the amount of the RED camera, plus extra. No joke.

Jay_C said:
2. What are the bare essentials for the Red?
Click to expand...

I got, body, 18-50 RED lens, production kit, two batteries, charger, 2 CF cards (now useless to me, since I've upgraded to the red drive), LCD. I think my total was just under $30k, but I could be a few thousand off.

Jay_C said:
3. Are there any issues that will pop up down the road that have been known to give people troubles in the editing stages?
Click to expand...

I'm sure there will be, but I haven't run into anything yet. I'm also not outputting to film, so...

Jay_C said:
4. Being Realistic: How realistic is it to own a 35 thousand dollar camera? Should we be looking at renting?
Click to expand...

If you're only going to do one project, rent. If you KNOW you will be doing multiple projects AND have solid distribution, buy.

Jay_C said:
5. Is it tough to resell a Red camera?
Click to expand...

Don't know anyone who wants to sell their RED after they get it. Have you met anyone who wants to sell their 1st born child?

Jay_C said:
6. How long in advance should someone put an order in for a Red camera? How long have you guys generally had to wait to receive yours?
Click to expand...

Ordered mine in February of 08 and got it in end of September in 08, however I hear they're ramping up production..

Good luck!
 
If you guys don't have multiple projects, why would you buy a camera? Most indie features are shot in 20 to 25 days. You can rent a Red One with a full production set-up for around 10k.

Make it a business decision. If you don't have on going projects, it really makes little sense to buy.
 
"How realistic is it to own a $35,000 car?

How do you finance that?"

Well...I think it's a little different. You're a lot less likely to get a bank to sign off on a loan for a $35,000 camera than a car. Just try explaining the logic or need for a camera vs. a car to someone who isn't knowledgeable in this sort of area.

xaidenx: Thanks for the replies!

CinematicFilm: We have two projects, but would most likely take on more if we actually owned the camera. But I agree with what you're saying.
 
If you spend a little more research time on this board, you should be able to produce your own qualified answers. Particularly to the questions related to hardware/camera. Most every topic has been threaded pretty thoroughly. Financial consideration and directions are purely a personal matter. Money and time are precious and should be spent accordingly.
 
Does not make sense to buy unless you or your friend are a DP class cinematographer. If you are, then you could leverage your kit to get gigs or rentals beyond your production.

If you are contemplating on the basics of finance/ing, I think you should talk to someone more aware of your financial situation and objectives. Postings on forums seeking financial advice will not get you far.
 
If you're doing just the one project and you don't fully know what the heck you are doing, i'd say wait for the Scarlet.

That's what I'm doing. Honing my camera and lighting knowledge and then expanding up to a better camera for the major projects.

However, since there are three of you to split costs then it might be okay to buy a RED ONE if you have the projects lined up to shoot (or to learn). Just remember that the more people you have involved the more of a risk that someone might want to cut out and do their own thing (and want their 1/3rd of the RED investment back).

As for the money though...if you really want to shoot it you'll find a way. Rental is cheaper if you can't sell enough blood between the three of you to buy a RED. Though if you're going to rent remember you'll need insurance for shooting your feature ((i'd recommend this anyway, in some form, especially as an indy flick.))
 
'If you are contemplating on the basics of finance/ing, I think you should talk to someone more aware of your financial situation and objectives. Postings on forums seeking financial advice will not get you far.'

I'm not seeking personal financial advice. I'm simply wondering how some other Red owners secured their cameras. There might be some creative answers that I could benefit from.
 
I'm all for buying your own stuff, I think it makes sense to own the means of production, but 35k for a feature setup will not do it.

Keep in mind on top of the camera you need a tripod (almost 10k for a 2060 & legs). You'll need some filters (at least some ND's), and you'll need a follow focus of some kind.

The kind of number I'd think was more realistic would be around 50k, and that's assuming you've got a new Mac Pro with a ton of storage, as a feature production you'd be asking a lot from a low end system.

I'd also think hard about if that leaves you with enough money left to put some cool stuff on screen.

Re: financing, the bank doesn't really care what you're buying outside of a house, as they don't really plan on being able to sell anything else for its original asking price. You probably won't have to tell them much about what it's for if your credit rating is good, and your salary/expenses line up.

Cal
 
Most of us worked really, really hard for a really long time and saved -

Cf cards will never be useless - there are plenty of times/examples where the CF card is the only way to go. Hard drives aren't really a choice in a concert for example.

If you're using filters, then you need a matte box.

You might want to rent the camera for a day and see if it's for you.
 
Jay

You've run into a tough crowd :-)

First order of business is to establish yourself as a business. If you have already done that, good. An LLC might be a good place to start. A bank will NOT give you money to finance a movie. Especially not right now, but even before the financial crisis this was the case with most banks. The reason - a lot of the films went into default on the loans. You need to establish that you are a production company that has a track record, and is multifaceted. You'll need a good business plan, written out in detail. If it looks like you are putting all of you eggs into one basket (i.e. one film), it's going to be tough to secure money. But if you can show the bank that you have plans to rent out the camera to generate income, as well as using it in a lot of the production work your company will do (commercials, music videos, TV shows, etc), then it becomes a bit more attractive to the bank. But you will have to show market analysis, projected earnings, etc. The banks may not be interested even after all of the work you do to prove you will make a profit and successfully pay back the loan. We're in economic chaos right now.

Some other tidbits.

1. You'll need 20% of the money you intend to borrow to show the bank you are serious.

2. You'll need good credit

3. If you have business associates who can vouch for you, it might not hurt.

If you are able to rent gear locally, then only get what you consider essential to shooting the tests, getting familiar with the camera kinds of things. Those are:

1. Camera body w/ CF Module
2. Red Power pack (2 batteries and charger)
3. Base Production Pack
4. LCD
5. Red Drive
6. RED 8GB CF Card
7. Tripod system capable of handling a MINIMUM of 25lbs.
8. Nikon Mount
9. At least a couple of Nikon lenses
10. a light kit, probably daylight balanced
11. ND filters (screw in for nikon)
12. Polarizer

From there, you can go crazy and buy all kinds of great accessories. But you will quickly spend well over $50K. So, I advise getting what you need to shoot basic stuff and rent the rest. This gives you the flexibility to shoot on the fly when you need to, but to get what you really need for the important shoots.

The best advise I can give you though is to treat this purchase as a business decision and not a filmmaking one. In other words, be smart and the filmmaking part will work itself out.
 
stevesherrick:

That was exactly the kind of insightful response I was looking for. Much appreciated!

I'm even wondering if I could use the fact that I work for a video game company as a behind the scenes documentarian as some sort of financial leverage when approaching a bank. Almost as though it's a piece of equipment for work. Who knows.
 
Jay:
your question are based on
1:you have fantastic script.
2:you are very good director.
3:you are very good film producer.
4:you will learn DOPing and editing really fast.

if you can say yes to all of above you should definitely spend $40K to 50K to buy Red and whatever.

If your answer is "Only thing I know is that I know nothing!" but I have fantastic script and passion.
Then spend $3500.00 on upcoming Canon 5D MarkII. (on sale at end of Nov. 08) It shoot HD 1850 30fps and fantastic quality. Show the on going project footage to film producers. If it's half decent you should have no problem getting 100K or more for your project. You can hire people who knows what they are doing and finish off the film the way you want to. If your film sucks, your damage will be about $1,000.00 after selling your 5D Mark II for $2500.00. Lot better than spending tons of money something you really don't know.


I own two Red Camera and am very happy that I have them. Red Camera was great equalizer for many Indie guys and small production houses.

Recent development of Nikon and Canon's built in motion picture capability on their mid level DSLR (although only in JPEG right now and no higher than 30fps) is another interesting equalizer for Pre-Indies (meaning, I know nothing about film making but I wanna shoot my own Whichwood Project) and still photographers who are looking for new avenue for creativity and income potential. (namely in web business)

We are going through most exiting time in digital image making in motion and still. Recent move by Jim making Epic and Scarlet different cameras is very smart and forward thinking. He sees lot of people do not see coming.
 
callan is on to something! the camera is one thing then you have allllllll the extras that im just gettin into 16k head, lenses, follow focus/support,cables, add on boxes, client monitors, filters, hardware for editing, and time to learn all the RED stuff, oh yea cases! its a nice little house (in the midwest) or a 1/30acr. lot in LA!

not a car!
 
Steve has the right Idea....

I'll add to that Start looking NOW to get a solution. As far as bank loan for a Business if you are not at least 2 years old, forget about it.

A lease will be hard, I have experience with that now but not impossible.

Start looking for a solution now, don't wait.
 
Are you already set on a DP? If not maybe you should look to a RED owner/DP. Find one that wants to make a feature with you and discount any rental for the camera package for a share in film, or just have a nice film to put on his reel.

I think only a DP should really consider buying a camera. All others should rent from an owner operator or make sure you use a DP that is very RED savvy.
 
Shawn Booth said:
there are plenty of times/examples where the CF card is the only way to go. Hard drives aren't really a choice in a concert for example.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I would think the opposite.

If I am filming a 90 minute concert, then I can't keep switching CF cards every 4 minutes.

Especially if I have 3 or 4 cams filming.

That would require 90 8Gb cards!!! Plus you would be losing at least 45 seconds of footage each time you changed cards.
 
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