Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dsmc..

Status
Not open for further replies.
melgross said:
But why should anyone think that a newcomer in the D-SLR business would be capable of dethroning two long time masters?
Click to expand...

1st off... I'm not the least bit interested in whether anyone thinks we can do it or not.

If we had listened to all the people that said we could not be a factor in the digital cinema arena... we would have never done the project.

I had a guy (nameless forever) tell me at our 1st NAB that there was NO WAY we could do what we were promising to customers just to collect $1000 deposits. My response was "what I'm hearing you say is that YOU can't do it and you don't know anyone who can do it. But you don't know RED." He is now shooting a feature on RED.

Please keep up the skepticism. It is very good motivation around here.

Jim
 
what I am really wondering all the time is: will it be a SLR (Single-Lens Reflex) camera, with a mechanically driven mirror or a wholly digital camera without reflex viewing, like the Red One?
 
Details of our DSMC will probably be given out near the end of the year...

Jim
 
melgross said:
I was thinking whether to register now, or wait until later. But Your posts decided it for me.

Canon has always made all of its sensors for their D-SLRs. They are now making all of their sensors for all of their D-SLRs.
Click to expand...

Perhaps - and this is a place where people can clarify if this is fact or not - this is why the person posted what they did.

From what I have read in the past (if its accurate or not, others can say), Sony made the chips for Canons Video line.
It could be, and Im not sure about this at all, that Bob was thinking that sony made the chip for Canons 5dII because it does video now...perhaps he got it confused with the Nikon bit, as you mentioned, or the 'fact' they made video sensors for Canon.

Either way - I would see Sony as more of a competitor to Reds new project than Canon. Again, I know the arguments about the A900 vs. the 5dII. (along with the fact that the a900 isnt doing video, so it would be in a future camera)
BUT...remember, Sony is an established video company that can blow canon out of the water...its a matter of will and time if they were to do it to canon.

But if they do supply video chips to Canon, then one wonders how such a move would affect their partnership.
And the fact they (Sony) make chips for the other rival Nikons DSLR shows that Sonys hand is in both companies (canon and nikon) so any real competition is questionable as it would affect business relations.

So, at this point in time, it seems that RED stands a good chance, (and many will argue better than good) to find their selves a nice niche in the market - which will be more appealing than what Sony, Canon, Nikon are offering.

Had you been around when Red first announced their video plans...you would have heard all of the nay-sayers, and now its just a given fact that RED is here to stay, as it were. ;)

As I said before, a man with a billion + dollars (money isnt the point, its access to the resources needed - typically money gets you there), as well as a dream...can do what ever he wants to. :)

Hang around, and Im sure you will be impressed. :)

Peace

dAlen
 
dalen7 said:
Perhaps - and this is a place where people can clarify if this is fact or not - this is why the person posted what they did.

From what I have read in the past (if its accurate or not, others can say), Sony made the chips for Canons Video line.
It could be, and Im not sure about this at all, that Bob was thinking that sony made the chip for Canons 5dII because it does video now...perhaps he got it confused with the Nikon bit, as you mentioned, or the 'fact' they made video sensors for Canon.

Either way - I would see Sony as more of a competitor to Reds new project than Canon. Again, I know the arguments about the A900 vs. the 5dII. (along with the fact that the a900 isnt doing video, so it would be in a future camera)
BUT...remember, Sony is an established video company that can blow canon out of the water...its a matter of will and time if they were to do it to canon.

But if they do supply video chips to Canon, then one wonders how such a move would affect their partnership.
And the fact they (Sony) make chips for the other rival Nikons DSLR shows that Sonys hand is in both companies (canon and nikon) so any real competition is questionable as it would affect business relations.

So, at this point in time, it seems that RED stands a good chance, (and many will argue better than good) to find their selves a nice niche in the market - which will be more appealing than what Sony, Canon, Nikon are offering.

Had you been around when Red first announced their video plans...you would have heard all of the nay-sayers, and now its just a given fact that RED is here to stay, as it were. ;)

As I said before, a man with a billion + dollars (money isnt the point, its access to the resources needed - typically money gets you there), as well as a dream...can do what ever he wants to. :)

Hang around, and Im sure you will be impressed. :)

Peace

dAlen
Click to expand...

Sony's DSLR division is actually the old Minolta. Sony and Nikon and Canon are not out to destroy each other. I read somewhere that Canon and Nikon and Sony are making lenses for each other's cameras too.

Sony has a huge fab for sensors. They will manufacture sensors or other parts for anyone. The differences are mainly how other companies use these sensors. Sony has huge R&D. They came up with the new 28MP and 40MP CMOS sensors with very fast readouts. Canon and Nikon and Sony will use these chips in their future products. Who knows, even RED may be counting on these sensors.

The question whether RED can dethrone established masters is interesting.
Big masters have the knowhow and ability to produce very sophisticated stuff. But, they bring out these features only at a slow pace and at a high price. They have to pay for their expensive R&D and constuction of Fabs and factories.

RED, as I understand, does not have any R&D or sensor fabs or huge factories. They use parts already available in open market and sell products directly to customers, eliminating middlemen. So, RED can produce a camera with a large sensor and high MP count and sell it for under $1000. That will shake up the the industry, no doubt. But, long term viability of such a strategy is doubtful.

RED One is an established Camera now. It is still under development. Who knows what Sony will do in the future. There has been some comments on these forums about Sony bringing out a EX5 with 2/3" sensor and 35mm lenses in 2009 for under $10K. Or a Sony 4K camera or something like that. If this happens, RED's dominance will be challenged.

Sony, with its own huge R&D, design staff, manufacturing plants, world wide distributors, an established brand name and deep pockets, is hard to dethrone. Or, so it seem. However, there are occassional Davids to Goliaths in business.

Sony was not always big and successful like this. Sony was a small company like RED today. They challenged the then established behemoths with their innovative products like walkman. Consumers liked their products and made them into a household name which it is today. Microsoft was a small bunch of kids who bought software from other parties and resold as their own, until they got some big breaks. Toyota was a fledgling car manufacturer who could not even make a decent engine. But, their economical design and low price destroyed the behemoths like GM. So, RED can also overtake established masters, if they come up with innovative products.

Until Jim makes the announcement, we will not know if DSMC is the Sony killer. Let us hope so.

I cannot take pictures with promise of a great camera sometime in the future. I need a camera now. I am waiting for delivery of either D90 or MKII for use now. These cameras are real and available now. If and when DSMC become reality sometime in 2010 or 2011, I can buy that at that time.
 
You are correct that there is a little bit of a threesome going on between Nikon, Canon, and Sony but it is just farming out of sensor making and technology. Sony manufactures image sensors for Canon's P&S cameras and camcorders as well as designing and manufacturing them for Nikon's P&S and DSLRs. Canon DSLRs use only Canon's image sensors. There is no shared lens making between any of the companies.
 
Lasagna.

Lasagna.

I work in film. Here is what I previously thought about choosing between the Film and digital formats:

Film is like Traditional homemade lasagna. You can spend all day prepping the noodles and making the sauce, grating the cheese, and grinding the meat (pre-production). Then after all that money and time, you put it in the oven (production / final take). Once finished, you still have to wait for it to cool down (post-processing) before you can serve. The quality, if done properly, is perfect.

Digital is (was) like Stouffer's. "Cut cover to vent, heat for 10 min, let it cool for 2 minutes, ENJOY!" A lot of the work is done for you, and the quality can be good enough to share with someone (youtube / personal webpage).

This is what I previously thought. Red has changed the game and took both elements out. You now have 12 personal chefs that all work together along with a super powered convection oven (Mysterium X) to give you a fast result. They can serve friends and family alike (cinema screens), and if they mess up on the first batch, (take 1) then you can just re-record(final take). The quality, if done properly, is perfect.

Tradtional reasons aside, RED changes the game.
(Can't wait for DSMC)
Kellan
 
BobSimon said:
Sony has a huge fab for sensors. They will manufacture sensors or other parts for anyone. The differences are mainly how other companies use these sensors. Sony has huge R&D. They came up with the new 28MP and 40MP CMOS sensors with very fast readouts. Canon and Nikon and Sony will use these chips in their future products. Who knows, even RED may be counting on these sensors.

Sony was not always big and successful like this. Sony was a small company like RED today. They challenged the then established behemoths with their innovative products like walkman. Consumers liked their products and made them into a household name which it is today. Microsoft was a small bunch of kids who bought software from other parties and resold as their own, until they got some big breaks. Toyota was a fledgling car manufacturer who could not even make a decent engine. But, their economical design and low price destroyed the behemoths like GM. So, RED can also overtake established masters, if they come up with innovative products.
Click to expand...

You bring up something interesting.
At one point, they all started small and then grew into the corporations that have advanced technology that they slowly trickle down to the public at high prices to keep 'control'.

And so the question would be, it seems, is if RED would go the same route in the end of the day...if they were to become the new 'sony'/'microsoft', etc. Or can they be creative and come up with a new business dynamic altogether?

I will say this...making your products upgradable is a good concept they have going...as long as it doesnt end up being the bottleneck that we see in some large companies...(i.e., adobe upgrades which should be point updates.) ;)

But the point of starting small is not quite accurate either.
To a degree it is - but its all about resources.
All these guys, despite the 'poor factor' and humble beginnings that the news tries to heap upon them to make them sound more human and attainable...well they had a bit of a better start with resources than your average person, so to speak.

Not saying this is always the case...interesting none-the-less.

Peace

dAlen
 
Lexicon said:
You are correct that there is a little bit of a threesome going on between Nikon, Canon, and Sony but it is just farming out of sensor making and technology. Sony manufactures image sensors for Canon's P&S cameras and camcorders as well as designing and manufacturing them for Nikon's P&S and DSLRs. Canon DSLRs use only Canon's image sensors. There is no shared lens making between any of the companies.
Click to expand...

Lexicon,

The thing I would point out is this:

When considering that Sony is partnering with Nikon and Canon, (despite what products it may be), it then raises the question if its in Sonys interest to truly compete with those they have business with...on any level. (You make one dept. mad, it goes up the chain.)

Again, this is looking at the business as a whole and not divided.
(i.e., not looking at the specific divisions within.)
From a higher level, you would work with that company throughout the product line...

...thats why Canon users are complaining that a feature on the 5dII which was "the most logical" did not appear.
...also why Sony has features not appear that seem weird to have been left off but included in Nikon or Sony.

I mean, Nikon has better noise reduction than Sony who manufactures their chips? Sony cant learn from them and get a bit creative with high iso's?

When I see the competition between the 3 its like looking at Sonys lower dslr product line up. (200, 300, 350) "There is a feature here...but not here...this is a $100 cheaper, etc.

There basically ends up being a camera for everyone...with something missing. (This is where I hope Red can deliver.)
No one jumps ship...or if they do, there are others swinging the other way, so it stays balanced.

If sony truly rolled out the tech they had...well it would upset the apple cart with canon and vice-versa.

Is this bad?

On a positive note:
Its good to have collaboration.
Problem is a very old business model, which tries to have to much control.
I believe that is what Jim got tired of when he started Red. - slow release of technology that Sony and the gang were sitting on. Prices staying the same, and the fact is - if you move forward - everyone can benefit.

But it seems that when the ship is big, its harder to turn...a lot of fear is involved in change. A lot of that boils down to human mentality, and in a way we build the large corporations that we later want to replace. (a lot like politics. One group replaces another...sometimes its as bad as the one before if not worse.) :)

Anyway, enough chit chat. :)

Peace

dAlen
 
lens2film said:
I work in film. Here is what I previously thought about choosing between the Film and digital formats:

Film is like Traditional homemade lasagna. You can spend all day prepping the noodles and making the sauce, grating the cheese, and grinding the meat (pre-production). Then after all that money and time, you put it in the oven (production / final take). Once finished, you still have to wait for it to cool down (post-processing) before you can serve. The quality, if done properly, is perfect.

Digital is (was) like Stouffer's. "Cut cover to vent, heat for 10 min, let it cool for 2 minutes, ENJOY!" A lot of the work is done for you, and the quality can be good enough to share with someone (youtube / personal webpage).
Click to expand...

Totally dug your post...very creative. :)
 
dalen7 said:
Lexicon,

When considering that Sony is partnering with Nikon and Canon, (despite what products it may be), it then raises the question if its in Sonys interest to truly compete with those they have business with...on any level. (You make one dept. mad, it goes up the chain.)dAlen
Click to expand...

Sony, Canon and Nikon all invent the same features at the same time. They all invent similar products and sell them at similar prices. Even the 3" screen, live view, and video were all invented by these companies at the same time. mmmm. whole lot of coincidences... D90 is 10MP at $1200. MKII with twice the MP and twice the price. D90 has lot of skew fro $1200. MKII has half the skew at twice the price...their Sensors have similar technical designs and they all get stamped out from the same Sony Fab... Canon makes a line of lenses for Nikon... they even have similar processors and similar microcode.. Great capitalist competition? .. or, something fishy here...

Sony invented both betamax and VHS. They decided to manufacture Betamax and gave the other to Panasonic. Consumers preferred the technically inferior but cheaper VHS and made it de facto standard.

Sony and Panasonic are not out to kill each other. Nikon is weak and for all practical purposes is kept alive by other companies.

Dell is the largest computer company now. intel makes the processors, Samsung makes the memory, Chinese make the motherboard and Microsoft makes the OS. All dell does is put all these parts that are available in the open market together in one box (assembled in China) and sell under their name. RED is trying to do the same thing. Will RED become the Dell of cameras? Only time will tell.

Sony and Canon and Nikon make the whole products. Not just parts. Also, these companies own oodles of patents. So, RED cannot just put together some parts and outsell the masters. I read somewhere on these forums that Sony gets only $1500 out if every EX3 sold. The rest goes to middlemen. RED has cut out the middlemen. That is why they became popular. Dell also cut out the middlemen and that made their products cheaper and popular. But, the enormous manufacturing capacity and original patents and real R&D and innovations of Sony et al may still give them an edge. Sony et al is not just a marketing organization like RED.

RED has announced many products. Only RED one is available for purchase. Even that is constantly changing. RED has promised full value trade ins for beta version REDs. But, customers will have to pay the difference between price of old RED and the new RED. The value of dollar is decreasing. RED is paying back with cheaper dollars for older models. The price of the newer models would be twice as much as what it should be without trade in. or, in other words, this one-time trade-in offer is like what the car dealers offer. You get a trade in allowance towards purchase of an over-priced newer model. This will keep the customers loyal to the brand; but in reality this may not be much of a deal for customers in the long run.

Jim is the untimate salesman. Jim is trying to repeat what he did at Oakley sun glasses, with video and still cameras. Hope he succeeds and we will all benfit.
 
BobSimon said:
The question whether RED can dethrone established masters is interesting.
Big masters have the knowhow and ability to produce very sophisticated stuff. But, they bring out these features only at a slow pace and at a high price. They have to pay for their expensive R&D and constuction of Fabs and factories.

RED, as I understand, does not have any R&D or sensor fabs or huge factories. They use parts already available in open market and sell products directly to customers, eliminating middlemen. So, RED can produce a camera with a large sensor and high MP count and sell it for under $1000. That will shake up the the industry, no doubt. But, long term viability of such a strategy is doubtful.

Sony, with its own huge R&D, design staff, manufacturing plants, world wide distributors, an established brand name and deep pockets, is hard to dethrone. Or, so it seem. However, there are occassional Davids to Goliaths in business.

I cannot take pictures with promise of a great camera sometime in the future. I need a camera now. I am waiting for delivery of either D90 or MKII for use now. These cameras are real and available now. If and when DSMC become reality sometime in 2010 or 2011, I can buy that at that time.
Click to expand...

I submit that RED at this point is primarily an R&D company. That is where the time and attention and money is being spent.
The big players may have large R&D budgets, but these budgets are spread across multiple product lines and markets too. They may not invest much in R&D for a very small market like motion picture production unless there is a compelling competitive reason to do so.

RED is focused on a very narrow product line, where an R&D budget that would be small for Sony corporate can make significant impact. There is no economy of scale for RED at this point that would make the investment in dedicated manufacturing facilities worthwhile.

As public corporations the big guys suffer significant restrictions on risk taking in the interest of their stock holders too. Hence the deliberate pace of new product development.

From an equipment and technology stand point professional high end media production: motion picture, television, and still photography, are all boutique markets and there is plenty of space for small businesses producing unique and high quality gear.
 
Some thoughts from Vincent Laforet's:
At a certain point of his first impression from the 5d MarkII he wrote
"2. It produces the best video in low light that I’ve ever seen - at 1080p. A top commercial film editor who who regularly edits RED camera footage - and has seen the raw footage from the 5D MKII - says the 5D MKII is “far superior to the RED camera” in terms of low light performance…"

Here the link to the article

Ciao
 
David Rasberry said:
I submit that RED at this point is primarily an R&D company. That is where the time and attention and money is being spent.
The big players may have large R&D budgets, but these budgets are spread across multiple product lines and markets too. They may not invest much in R&D for a very small market like motion picture production unless there is a compelling competitive reason to do so.

RED is focused on a very narrow product line, where an R&D budget that would be small for Sony corporate can make significant impact. There is no economy of scale for RED at this point that would make the investment in dedicated manufacturing facilities worthwhile.

As public corporations the big guys suffer significant restrictions on risk taking in the interest of their stock holders too. Hence the deliberate pace of new product development.

From an equipment and technology stand point professional high end media production: motion picture, television, and still photography, are all boutique markets and there is plenty of space for small businesses producing unique and high quality gear.
Click to expand...

Innovation in the "professional" area has direct application to the consumer space, and vice versa. Sony will continue to leverage both sides for the benefit of the other. They will continue to respond to the Red threat, though my money's on Red for the products they make, because Red has the right values, and is nimble and quick-adapting. Like Sony once was, in the beginning.

As far as being public companies goes, remember that Sony, Nikon, and Canon are Japanese companies, whose strategic outlook is measured in decades. They have no problem investing huge amounts in areas (like fabs) where the payoff doesn't come by next quarter. Japanese companies, public or otherwise, are VERY different than so-called U.S. public companies. They think long term; they are not slaves to the stock market.

As an American, I love what Red is doing. Sure, most of the manufacturing is probably done overseas, but Red is COMPETING. It's a start. The U.S. needs to rebuild its industrial capability, not just for the sake of ourselves, but for the world as well. We can't sustain being the world's consumers forever while losing our industrial base. We're losing it because companies are "being run for the benefit of the stockholders", who may only have the stock for a week or a day and only care about this quarter, right now.

Sorry for the off-topic rant! Red is stickin' it to the man; keep it up!
 
amonsul said:
Some thoughts from Vincent Laforet's:
At a certain point of his first impression from the 5d MarkII he wrote
"2. It produces the best video in low light that I’ve ever seen - at 1080p. A top commercial film editor who who regularly edits RED camera footage - and has seen the raw footage from the 5D MKII - says the 5D MKII is “far superior to the RED camera” in terms of low light performance…"

Here the link to the article

Ciao
Click to expand...

But it does not do 4k, 3k, or even 2k like RedONe. ;)
Its in HD land - Red is in cinema...thats the difference...and thats a big difference.

Now on a technical area, I dont understand how they (canon) has a bigger chip then Red and are stuck below the cinema range (2-4k) and dwell in HD land.

Is it because of the amount of data? suppose 12 minutes on a card is pushing it. So its not a matter of the canon not being able to do 4k...the sensor...but that the media isnt large enough to record the data stream?

Peace

dAlen
 
lens2film said:
I work in film. Here is what I previously thought about choosing between the Film and digital formats:

Film is like Traditional homemade lasagna. You can spend all day prepping the noodles and making the sauce, grating the cheese, and grinding the meat (pre-production). Then after all that money and time, you put it in the oven (production / final take). Once finished, you still have to wait for it to cool down (post-processing) before you can serve. The quality, if done properly, is perfect.

Digital is (was) like Stouffer's. "Cut cover to vent, heat for 10 min, let it cool for 2 minutes, ENJOY!" A lot of the work is done for you, and the quality can be good enough to share with someone (youtube / personal webpage).

This is what I previously thought. Red has changed the game and took both elements out. You now have 12 personal chefs that all work together along with a super powered convection oven (Mysterium X) to give you a fast result. They can serve friends and family alike (cinema screens), and if they mess up on the first batch, (take 1) then you can just re-record(final take). The quality, if done properly, is perfect.

Tradtional reasons aside, RED changes the game.
(Can't wait for DSMC)
Kellan
Click to expand...

As creative as Your post is, I totally disagree... EVERY single step You have described in the "Lasagna Workflow" applies to digital as well. Do You really skip "all day prepping the noodles and making the sauce, grating the cheese, and grinding the meat (pre-production)" just because You are shooting digital??? Ditto for all the other steps...

Just my one peso... :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top