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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Lexar 16GB card fast enough?

MartinW said:
So you mean that RED will sell a new upgradable CF module to be able to work with 16GB cards? Did I get that correctly?
Click to expand...

Martin, here is my understanding of the situation at the moment. Deanan said in this thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19061

that "We had to make changes to the CF writer module, build17, and the CF cards firmware too. There are some cards out there already with beta testers."

All along they have been saying that cameras that have shipped with the old style CF card writing modules will be exchanged on an orderly basis for those who have ordered the bigger, faster, CF cards with RED ready firmware. It just seems to me there is a synergism between the cards and the camera that one may not be able to duplicate with a third party card in future camera firmware builds.

I do not know if this is part of their business plan or if it is a technical necessity, but I expect it will be the way things work.

Other than what I have stated, I am just another Sgt Schultz. (I know nuth-ing!)
 
number6 said:
Martin, here is my understanding of the situation at the moment. Deanan said in this thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19061

that "We had to make changes to the CF writer module, build17, and the CF cards firmware too. There are some cards out there already with beta testers."

All along they have been saying that cameras that have shipped with the old style CF card writing modules will be exchanged on an orderly basis for those who have ordered the bigger, faster, CF cards with RED ready firmware. It just seems to me there is a synergism between the cards and the camera that one may not be able to duplicate with a third party card in future camera firmware builds.

I do not know if this is part of their business plan or if it is a technical necessity, but I expect it will be the way things work.

Other than what I have stated, I am just another Sgt Schultz. (I know nuth-ing!)
Click to expand...

number6

It makes sense that they would need/want to update the CF module for the RED 16 gigs as presumably they are MUCH faster than the 8 gig lexar UDMA modules in order to handle the upcoming higher data rates of the EPIC and scarlet and possibly mysterium x upgraded redones.

It doesn't however make much sense (even if you consider all of the other TYPES of cards that didn't quite make it) if you figure that the LEXAR 16 gig 300x UDMAs are the from the same manufacturer and same product line with presumably the same internal controllers, memory types, and such AND testing has already shown that they perform as well or better than the LEXAR 8 gigs.

Some response from RED is in order - these are already available at dealers and presumably RED should have a good inside track with LEXAR. Even if the RED statement is "yes we have done preliminary testing and they seem to work and therefore we have updated the software to allow their use - however we cannot give confident assurance that they will perform without dropped frames in actual use. Use at your own risk!"

I look at memory and harddrives as items that should be used and amortized within a year or less so it makes sense that we could get these now and be using them with our redones even if they can't handle the faster data rates of the next generation.
 
16GB cards

16GB cards

Some response from RED is in order - Even if the RED statement is

"yes we have done preliminary testing and they seem to work and therefore we have updated the software to allow their use - however we cannot give confident assurance that they will perform without dropped frames in actual use. Use at your own risk!"
Click to expand...

Sorry, at this stage of testing we couldn't even make that qualified statement.
 
Stuart English said:
Sorry, at this stage of testing we couldn't even make that qualified statement.
Click to expand...

Understood. Does the build 16 software reject them automatically? I.E. can we test them ourselves - or will it just tell us it is not certified and refuse to format or write?
 
I have the same questions as Mike. The Lexar 16GB 300X PRO UDMA can now be found for $200 so they would be a great option if the RED firmware/hardware accepts them. Even if there are limits in the resolution, rate and RC settings that can be used they would still be extremely useful.
 
Yes, I think if the limitations were the same as with the 8 GB CF cards, a lot of people would be willing to live with that, especially if the price is the same as the Red 8GB CF cards...
 
Hi,

If it had been that easy Red would have just bought Lexar cards.

Stephen
 
Deanan said:
Yup...
Click to expand...

Deanan:

Could you expand on this?

I bought the explanation earlier that the cards from other manufacturers didn't have the same speed memory or controller or interface or whatever - but these seem to have exactly the same internals except higher capacity. Not saying for sure that there can't be a good reason, but seems like in this case something official beyond a one (non)word answer is in order.

Could build 17 Beta be opened up so 4K could be tried BY US to see if it meets our needs?

I don't have a problem with a manufacturer specifying things like specific grades of tape so that heads aren't damaged, or in this case certain types of memory if it would actually damage camera...

And I don't have a problem with RED having the camera put up a warning such as "Non-certified memory - not recommended, expect problems - proceed at your own risk" ...

But I do have a problem with being completely locked out and not letting us determine if it works to our needs/situation.
 
AquaVideoRed206 said:
Deanan:

Could you expand on this?

I bought the explanation earlier that the cards from other manufacturers didn't have the same speed memory or controller or interface or whatever - but these seem to have exactly the same internals except higher capacity. Not saying for sure that there can't be a good reason, but seems like in this case something official beyond a one (non)word answer is in order.

Could build 17 Beta be opened up so 4K could be tried BY US to see if it meets our needs?

I don't have a problem with a manufacturer specifying things like specific grades of tape so that heads aren't damaged, or in this case certain types of memory if it would actually damage camera...

And I don't have a problem with RED having the camera put up a warning such as "Non-certified memory - not recommended, expect problems - proceed at your own risk" ...

But I do have a problem with being completely locked out and not letting us determine if it works to our needs/situation.
Click to expand...

See Jarred's Build 17 thread here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19260

about halfway doun the first post in the thread. Partially addresses what you are asking, I think.

edit: for those in a hurry, it says:

* Non-speed verified CF cards now permitted to record at 2K RAW resolution.

Note: Non-speed verified CF cards is solely at end-user risk.

Note: RED makes no representations regarding maximum frame rate or immunity to dropped frames.
 
Slinnn said:
So this means they won't even handle 4K 16/9 RC28 @25fps ?
Click to expand...

Correct. A card's rated speed is often tested on an analyzer which provides perfect write patterns. When the same card is subjected to real world write patterns which include file system changes, varying frame sizes, and camera dependant timing issues, the picture is very different. Even a card that might be fast on a pc may be not usable on a camera because of the way the controllers interact. There are also many things besides speed that are tested and often need to be modified and tweaked to work properly. It's a ton of work to make these things function properly under high performance and realtime conditions.
 
AquaVideoRed206 said:
I bought the explanation earlier that the cards from other manufacturers didn't have the same speed memory or controller or interface or whatever - but these seem to have exactly the same internals except higher capacity.
Click to expand...

That's an incorrect assumption as components as well as methods to access the components change.
 
so what's the difference

so what's the difference

number6

I saw that which is why I asked for 4K.

Deanan:

So you have tested these cards and they failed?

What is the difference on the 16 gig cards, for all those things you mentioned, between the seemingly identical technology used on the same line of cards?

Sorry if my persistence is rude, I was raised in the showme state.

PS I composed this while you were posting the 1:08 answer, but I guess the question is the same.
 
AquaVideoRed206 said:
What is the difference on the 16 gig cards, for all those things you mentioned, between the seemingly identical technology used on the same line of cards?
Click to expand...

I've been testing every > 8GB card for the last year. Every single one, including many unreleased versions.

To simplify it, sometimes people switch to MLC to get 16GB or they have
to double stack the memory or their controller just wasn't designed to get full speeds from > 8 GB (releated to how the memory gets accesed).

Seriously, if it was as trivial as people suggest, we'd have done 9 months ago when we first started seeing 16GB cards that claimed to be 300x.
 
Thanks, Deanan

The thing that made me press is that you would think the same manufacturer/same line/same test methods would indicate same capability - but apparently not.

BTW not saying it's trivial, but it has been over a year since the 8 gigs - which is like dog years in the technology world - so thought maybe they were there.
 
AquaVideoRed206 said:
Thanks, Deanan

The thing that made me press is that you would think the same manufacturer/same line/same test methods would indicate same capability - but apparently not.

BTW not saying it's trivial, but it has been over a year since the 8 gigs - which is like dog years in the technology world - so thought maybe they were there.
Click to expand...

We thought so too at first and everyone kept promising us a 16 that would work every few weeks.
 
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