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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic audio: feature request - digital audio only

Nigel Stanford

Nigel Stanford

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Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but I would love to see the audio inputs on the camera digital aes/ebu only. Maybe 2 or at the most 3 inputs, for 4 or 6 channels. The reasoning is:

- sound guy can have a small A/D converter on their person, or use the digital output of their recorder
- sound guy can use expensive high end A/D converters
- the gain pot is operated by the sound guy (vital!)
- the synced audio in editorial will be at the maximum quality
- Epic is a pro cinema camera, and there will always be a sound department

This would allow everyone to agree that the digital audio stored in the red is master quality, rather than someone having the opinion that it's 'guide' quality only.

This gives so many advantages.
- No syncing for the assistant editor.
- The editorial timeline can then be exported to omf or aaf and given to the sound department directly.
- The audio file naming convention matches the video file naming convention exactly.

We have done something similar with hard disc recorders, and it works great. The only files that are not recorded on the camera and come from the sound department are wild lines / ambience, everything else is named and matched 100% to the video.

Thoughts?
 
How about no audio, to make those audio guys stop touching our cameras! ; )
 
What happens with audio when frames are slower or faster? Option to play with sound?:mellow:
 
Ayoji said:
What happens with audio when frames are slower or faster? Option to play with sound?:mellow:
Click to expand...

Good question. The current strategy from every camera is to do nothing.
How about adjusting the speed of the audio to match the video?

This isn't as hard as it sounds, you would do a pitch shift.
Music samplers have been doing this since the early 80's, it wouldn't have a large CPU overhead.
For a slowmo shot, you'd have perfectly synced low pitched audio.
Perfect for those comedy shots where someone is diving to catch the falling object and yelling 'Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo........' :shifty:

This would be a cool feature!
 
but would overcranking the sensor and capturing a high frame rate leave enough cpu to even mess with capturing audio, throwing it into it's own buffer, slowing it down, pitch shifting it, and then putting with the image? can you over sample audio to the same extent and lay it back to the video at the right frame rate?

i say leave it to the sound department..
 
My suggestion:

Have an input port designed by a reputable audio company, http://www.sounddevices.com/ would be a good candidate.
The audio port would provide: attach points. direct digital audio inputs, and 12v power for a variety ride along devices. A-D's would be off board. Enough physical space on the dumb side would be reserved for the devices, 40x80 mm...



The ride along, attached to camera modules, could be made by different companies to fit various needs.

1. Nothing: Just a port cover

2. Basic: 2 XLR's with Pot's

3. Multi Pin: Single Mixer Cable input for Analog 4-channel

4. Digital in -

5. Wireless Receivers / Camera Mic input combo. Cable Free.

6. GPS sourced "perfect" time of day clock - Instant stress free sync amongst multiple cameras and recorders over a large area.

7. Meta Data... for VFX integration

Anyway, you get the idea. You can't please everybody, especially if they work as a mixer. Red should concentrate on making cool camera stuff and leave sound to experienced and trusted audio companies.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
audio is important even on Epic because, it allows almost instant editing on-set with no syncing or need to input sound from sound department. This is a killer feature when on Commercial shoots where you have agency and or director wanting a "realtime" cut.

Yeah you could record from a breakout box like we do when we shoot film, but still the different proxies and no hazzle is amazing for on-set editing and presentation.

great picture great sound.
 
I vote for Matt's idea. The camera would still record the audio, but all I/O and signal related stuff would be made by and controlled by sound.

And it could be removed completely and the port could be covered by velcro.
 
No audio PLEASE. Let the audio guys do their job and let the camera dept do their job. We've been making movies like this for 75+ years. The audio quality on these cameras will never be as good as a dedicated recording device from Nagra, etc. So what's the point?
 
spotshooter said:
No audio PLEASE. Let the audio guys do their job and let the camera dept do their job. We've been making movies like this for 75+ years. The audio quality on these cameras will never be as good as a dedicated recording device from Nagra, etc. So what's the point?
Click to expand...

The point is that if it's a digital input, it IS as good as a Nagra, because it uses the Nagra's input. And having all the audio synced and named the same as the video is a big plus.
 
an even nicer option could be MADI in / out capability,
and even more tracks to record.

Then we could even have 64ch audio i/o, all a/d conversion could be done external and converters for all formats are available when needed.
I don't mean we'd need 64, but 8 or 12 coudl be really nice...
Then it could easilly been sent out to different locations at the same time, recording on 2 devices when needed or wanted keeping a backup immediately,
and monitoring and such could be done at the second non camera sollution.
There is more and more capable with MADI as all brands seem to adapt because of its ease of use with only 1 or 2 cables.
 
The more i think about it the more it makes sense to have a Madi audio digital i/o instead of aes only. Madi can easily be cascaded as well...
and it would open up an easier way of handling post and having all tracks onboard recorded in excellent quality and monitoring could easily be done without dp's having to worrie that audio guys still touch their cameras , because they wouldn't have to... signals could get it at exact the same levels as they receive at the monitoring stage..

I hope the Red team considers this and sees it as a valuable option, it wouldn't reduce the cost of good quality preamps, and it might not be the best option if you want to have a small device, but since the epic will be mostly made for larger productions whith mostly audio crew available it would be really great to be able to choose gear for audio quality wise, being able to use all kinds of preamps, converters and easily get them to eachother with the least amount of cabling..
 
I don't say I'd need that much tracks, but with current specs of processors and audio not uptaking to much processing, especially when its already converted it wouldn't be a bad way to have at least the option to pass audio over the new accepted cabling supported by all major broadcasters.. and I must admitt, aes/ebu has never been my best friend as audio engineer, and madi is a much nicer sollution then adat or tdif.

In this way we could connect a digital mixer , choose the preamps we want, connect them via good converters and route them to the camera that's acting as recorder then with all audio fitting in its place for editing.

maby this coudl be a small different module handling this.
I suppose the Red team could built more accesories in the epic and scarlet range than they have done with r1, some kind of broadcast adapter next to this idea would be a great deal as well as mentioned by some before.
 
I have BEGGED for an AES audio input. I begged for the RED One to have one. I now BEG for one in Epic. This is soooooo important, RED. This will put archival-quality sound in perfect synch with the video. Editing will then be a breeze.

I will be very disappointed if RED doesn't institute this very simple change.

Stephen
 
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