What framerate to shoot?

[Kevin Wild]

What is the recommended frame rate (or timebase?) that you guys think we should shoot for broadcast type work (ie possible broadcast and/or corporate stuff delivered on DVD). I've shot a bunch of test footage at 24 and it does play back via our Kona LHe at 1080i, but I'm not sure this is ideal if we're going to DVD via software compression.

I do a lot of things, but I've never really had my head around film pulldowns and all. Any help is appreciated.

What is the downside to exporting as ProresHQ 29.97 in REDCine? Would it be better to do native 24p or 23.98?

Thanks for any advice.

Kevin

 

[Scott H. Jones]

Use 23.98 for broadcast & DVD, and 24 fps only if you're doing film out.

We use 23.98 as the time base for the majority of our work as it converts cleanly to 29.97 when adding a 3:2 pulldown. There are a number of ways to add the pulldown, out of REDCine (as you described), After Effects, Final Cut Pro, with the help of an SDI card, etc. You should test the various conversion methods in order to determine which will yield the best conversion. When we go to DVD we leave the project in 23.98 and encode the MPEG-2 using Compressor, which adds the 3:2 pulldown. 23.98 will also help ensure you don't have any audio sync issues. And should you need to output to 1080i, 23.98 progressive will convert cleanly to 59.94 interlaced (23.98p + 3:2 pulldown = 29.97 x 2 = 59.94i).

 

[Gian Joon]

Use 23.98 for broadcast & DVD, and 24 fps only if you're doing film out.

What if we are going to do DVD and filmout as well. Will 24 or 23.98 be better?

 

[Kevin Wild]

Thanks, Scott. Good to hear how someone else is doing it. When going to tape, it sounds like the best way is to just let the AJA Kona LHe do the pulldown. Thing is, we do a lot that is just file-based or DVD based. I guess we'll let Compressor do the pulldown for DVD's. I'll have to do some tests...

Thanks!

Kevin

 

[Andrew Walker]

I shoot 24 all the time because I like having that .02 fps more. Seems like it would be easier to go from 24 to 23.98 vs the other way.

 

[Alex.Mitchell]

I shoot 24 all the time because I like having that .02 fps more. Seems like it would be easier to go from 24 to 23.98 vs the other way.

I believe it's pretty much the same amount of work to go from 24 to 23.976 as it is to go from 23.976 to 24.

 

[Andrew Walker]

I'm sure it is but I would rather start out with more information than less. In my dealings it is easier to take out something than to try and create something that wasn't there before.

 

[Dave Neathery]

Use 23.98 for broadcast & DVD, and 24 fps only if you're doing film out.

We use 23.98 as the time base for the majority of our work as it converts cleanly to 29.97 when adding a 3:2 pulldown. There are a number of ways to add the pulldown, out of REDCine (as you described), After Effects, Final Cut Pro, with the help of an SDI card, etc. You should test the various conversion methods in order to determine which will yield the best conversion. When we go to DVD we leave the project in 23.98 and encode the MPEG-2 using Compressor, which adds the 3:2 pulldown. 23.98 will also help ensure you don't have any audio sync issues. And should you need to output to 1080i, 23.98 progressive will convert cleanly to 59.94 interlaced (23.98p + 3:2 pulldown = 29.97 x 2 = 59.94i).

I respectfully disagree. If you are not going to filmout, I would NEVER use 23.98 or 24 fps exactly because of the 3:2 pulldown. Motion is already a problem at 24 fps, making frames repeat only makes the problem worse.
The other side of the coin, is that for a fixed data rate, you could, in theory get a better image at a slower frame rate, but the advantage is probably lost by the time you go through mpeg 2 4:2:0 and shorten the frame time anyway. The end result is that you may get a better picture on the frames that repeat, but not the ones that don't. If you can, I think you should always avoid 3:2 pulldown, it was just another way to make things work, by sacrificing quite a bit of quality.

If the Red One supported 4K 16:9 @ 59:94, I would be using that, as it would make my Blu-Rays look even better, and would pose no problem for either DVD or broadcast. (Problem meaning loss of quality, beyond what is necessary for the medium. Which is already huge of course.)

Using a good encoder like the Cinemacraft SP2 helps, but you still can't get around the basic concept and it's effects. Don't start by putting yourself behind the 8 ball.

Dave Neathery

 

[M Most]

I'm sure it is but I would rather start out with more information than less. In my dealings it is easier to take out something than to try and create something that wasn't there before.

There is no difference in the "amount of information" in 23.98 vs. 24fps. The number of frames is the same, they just run at a slightly slower rate, imperceptibly slower. If you're working in the US, there is usually no reason to use 24fps. 23.98 yields exactly the same look, but is much more compatible with video systems (i.e., viewing copies, previews, basically everything short of a film negative) and post sound systems. When and if you get to a film release, the film will be projected at 24fps and the track will be pulled up to stay in sync. This kind of pull up (for sound) is done all the time, it is not problematic at all.

 

[Scott H. Jones]

...I would NEVER use 23.98 or 24 fps exactly because of the 3:2 pulldown... If you can, I think you should always avoid 3:2 pulldown... Don't start by putting yourself behind the 8 ball.

This is a subjective argument. 24 or 23.98 is desirable because it yields a more film-like look. If you are okay with a more video-like look then shoot 29.97 (or 59.94). It's also a question of drive space -- 29.97 obviously takes more.

Scott

 

[James Brundige]

This is a subjective argument. 24 or 23.98 is desirable because it yields a more film-like look. If you are okay with a more video-like look then shoot 29.97 (or 59.94). It's also a question of drive space -- 29.97 obviously takes more.

Scott

Film look, in this case = jerky pans and camera motion. 29.97 is not video like, it's just better cinematography. I've tried all the frame rates on Red, and, if you are releasing at 29.97 (or 60i), shoot at 29.97. Otherwise you have to invent 6 frames per second in post. That's ok unless the camera is moving, which gives the classic 24fps strobe on a pan. I've shot lots of film at 100 fps, and faster frame rates look, IMHO, better. Lower frame rates are a kind of time-based compression.

The other way to emulate film is to shoot high ISO, which introduces noise which can look a little like grain.

I expect a little flack from the film snobs, but let's keep it polite. After you live with the Red for a while, you won't pine for scratched emulsions and changing bags.

 

[Andrew Walker]

There is no difference in the "amount of information" in 23.98 vs. 24fps. The number of frames is the same, they just run at a slightly slower rate, imperceptibly slower. If you're working in the US, there is usually no reason to use 24fps. 23.98 yields exactly the same look, but is much more compatible with video systems (i.e., viewing copies, previews, basically everything short of a film negative) and post sound systems. When and if you get to a film release, the film will be projected at 24fps and the track will be pulled up to stay in sync. This kind of pull up (for sound) is done all the time, it is not problematic at all.

Yeah your right about the whole speed of playback. But if its so easy to go from 24 to 23.98 why not just shoot in 24. I guess there's an argument for both frame rates. But it does seem like for the majority of projects shooting 23.98 would be ideal. Still wont change me from shooting 24fps.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

23.976 is the safer bet in the US

23.976 is the safer bet in the US

In the US I highly recommend shooting 23.976 rather than 24. As Mike mentioned, there are issues with monitoring and if a 29.97 version is one of the deliverables its a faster transcode.

Sitting around chatting about production snafus I have often heard horror stories about 24fps driving post nuts, I have never heard even one incident of 23.796 screwing post. This is obviously anecdotal evidence, YMMV.

 

[Scott H. Jones]

Film look, in this case = jerky pans and camera motion... ...faster frame rates look, IMHO, better. Lower frame rates are a kind of time-based compression.

Why is it that most DP's don't shoot film at 30 fps when shooting for broadcast? Because it looks too much like video, largely because it is so smooth. I'm not telling anyone to shoot 23.98, only that it will result in what is traditionally considered a more film-like look. There are benefits to both approaches. It's a subjective decision. Do tests, then decide what is best for the project at hand.

By the way, I got crucified last year for using the expression "film snob" on this forum, so watch your back!

 

[James Brundige]

By the way, I got crucified last year for using the expression "film snob" on this forum, so watch your back!

Thanks, donning Kevlar suit now.

It was on this forum that I was convinced to shoot for a while at 23.98. Had to throw out all the pans. I guess I've gotten used to smoother camera movement.

 

[Scott H. Jones]

It was on this forum that I was convinced to shoot for a while at 23.98. Had to throw out all the pans. I guess I've gotten used to smoother camera movement.

I understand there can also be issues with movement because of the rolling shutter (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8612&highlight=shutter+movement+problem). I've been meaning to do some tests for this so I'll take a closer look at different frame rates while I'm at it.

You know, we see jerky pans all the time in movies. I guess we've become accustomed to it. I'd be interested to know if any of the movies being shot on RED are using a faster frame rate than 24 fps. For me media space is the biggest issue because all I have to shoot with at the moment are 8GB CF cards.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Our associated companies analyze the intended usage of the footage and shoot a frame rate and shutter speed that best presents the subject matter - within the technical requirements for the screening or airing of the footage.

If the footage or project is destined for broadcast, every network supplies us packagers/producers with specific technical guidelines for the acquisition and delivery of the footage and the final product.

If it's a more filmic presentation we're after, we shoot 23.98. If the footage needs to be more "now", then if shooting in 4k it is at 29.97. If we need smooth slow motion from the footage we generally shoot 3k/59.94 or occasionally 2k/100+fps. We overcrank and undercrank regularly if it is the best choice for saying what we went/need from the footage.

Stock footage, including footage shot with our RED cameras is an important part of our business. By request of our stock footage representatives, our 4k footage that has faster motion within the frame is shot at 29.97, with more static shots and mood shots done at 23.98. For stock high action shots we usually shoot at 3k/59.94 or occasionally 2k/100+fps. The stock house has to deal with a lot of conversions and clients, and the frame rate that best presents the subject matter for the highest quotient of potential clients (read: revenue potential), with the least amount of gymnastics to convert, is what they like.

RED footage is inherently organic in look and feel and being RAW can be manipulated in pre-post and post. We're not hung up on a "23.98 or 24fps" or nothing mindset. Setting prejudice and peer pressure aside, we shoot frame rate/shutter speed combos that best tell the story of the subject matter, satisfies the technical requirement of our screening or airing outlets, give the most flexibility (and marketability) for our stock footage, and will be the most "evergreen" (long shelf life utility).

We respect 23.98 and 24fps. Certain subjects and genres we shoot require those or aesthetically call for them. That said, there are other subjects and genres we shoot that call for higher frame rate/shutter speed combos, and we don't hesitate to shoot them when that's the case.

Traditionalists who work in one genre, or a narrow range of genres, usually stick with 23.98 or 24fps. But RED One has been, is now, and will be increasingly used for genres and portions thereof that aesthetically, technically, and/or contractually require other frame rate/shutter speed combos to be used. All digital cinema isn't just narrative cinema. There is a broad array of non-narrative cinema genres and sub-genres within the digital cinema family of production genres - and all of them don't call for a strict "24 or nothing" mentality.

Beyond that, the largest portion by far of the professional motion media industry is electronic field production (EFP), where an increasing number of non-narrative productions and portions thereof are being shot (for U.S. broadcast) in 23.98 for creative opening and closing montages, and 29.97 or 59.94 for the body of the programs. RED works amazingly well for those types of non-hardlined programs, shot in a mixture of frame rates depending on the needed look of the montage or sub-segment, and edited in post.

If someone wants to work just in genres that call for 23.98 or 24fps, fine, that should be respected. But respect is a 2-way street. If someone works in a broad array of cine-style and EFP-style genres, and consequently uses multiple frame rates for their work, that should be respected also. RED One has a broad range of frame rates and shutter speeds, and they're there for a reason - to increase its utility and flexibility, and thus its revenue generating potential.

Why not keep an open mind and use alternate frame rates when the need arises? It will allow you to grow professionally and financially.

This discussion doesn't have to be an "us vs. them" diatribe based upon the traditional discord between the film and television industries. Media convergence fueled by technology convergence has resulted in a confluence of professionals from the film, television, video, and still photography industries. Along with them comes different insight and ideas on how to use technology. Beyond union sets, the industry doesn't have to be one of "Why can't you do things our way - the right way!", but rather one of "Let's figure out the right way for this production or portion thereof, and do it!"

Media and technology convergence have also enabled the emergence of "generalists" who span multiple skill sets and are good in all of them. They're not "Jacks of all trades and masters of none". Conversely, quite often a "specialist" is defined as "someone who learns more and more about less and less - until they know everything about nothing".

RED One was designed for flexibility and utility - and the biggest challenge for users of RED is to make their minds be as flexible and utilitarian as the camera system is. Respect is a 2-way street.

 

[Tar]

If you're using Color then you might want to go 23.98 vs. 24. When I did my project Color had problems with 24 but was seamless when I converted the timeline to 23.98. I was CC 1080p UC 10-Bit.

One other thing to remember is that this difference can cause a world of problems with audio syncing. My project wasn't sync sound so I didn't have to worry about that. Just a heads up.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Choices of frame rate and shutter angle can add interest to a project and done adroitly can advance story with great economy. Gibby's notes about horses for courses is important both for the objective rationales he cites and because of the powerful intrinsic message you can convey by your choice of frame rates.

Within the more limited scope of the initial post I wanted to echo Mike's sage advice to shoot 23.976 or 29.97 in the US rather than 24 or 30 fps to avoid problems. Moreover, I strongly suggest that when you generate multiple frame rate material that you properly notate that information for post - particularly in these early days of RED material hitting traditional post facilities it can cause them to wonder if they have some setting wrong rather than reveling in your creative artistry. :w00t:

Judder during pans can be avoided even at slower frame rates by controlling the pan rate, and, if you don't mind the smearing, by altering the shutter angle. There are a number of other factors that can dramatically influence the viewer's awareness of the discrete steps in a pan judder like the presence of high contrast vertical objects, the acquisition codec, etc so YMMV.

 

[James Brundige]

RED One was designed for flexibility and utility - and the biggest challenge for users of RED is to make their minds be as flexible and utilitarian as the camera system is. Respect is a 2-way street.

Thanks for the thoughtful essay. That covers a lot of the options very well.