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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red SKD

roryhinds

roryhinds

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IMO once the SDK is release and developers like Apple, Imagineer, Avid, Autodesk etc bring out post tools...

Red will see the biggest leap forward.
 
roryhinds said:
IMO once the SDK is release and developers like Apple, Imagineer, Avid, Autodesk etc bring out post tools...

Red will see the biggest leap forward.
Click to expand...

Rory.

Your post title this close to an SDK release is a bit of an eye opener.

MY PURE SPECULATION but I am guessing key companies (avid and adobe) might have something resembling an SDK already, so you might see RED incorporated fairly quickly in their apps/codecs.

I think that when a wider SDK is released (in mere days as Jay A. Kelly's thread has been suggesting) then we might start to see things in months.

I am sure there will be some great little apps by October an maybe a few even sooner than that.

David
 
yes I think we all want post tools that work by developers who know how to make it work.

For a camera that shoots data to disk this is essential.
 
I may be reading this the wrong way... but...

Apple and Assimilate have done a nice job with the Red worfklow. It's insanely simple: Cut proxies in FCP, edl to Scratch, conform & grade. Bingo, done. I do it regularly and it works every time.

I realize people have their favorite apps, etc... that they want to use with Red, and that's completely valid and it'll be supercool when it happens, but I also get a bit frustrated by all the talk about how problematic or the current Red post workflow is.

BTW... :ninja: Baselight eats DaVinci as a light appetizer and spits it out because it tastes bad, then sends Pogle back because it's underdone!!!! :clown2:



jt
 
Jashunter said:
we dont really want extra apps, dont want any more steps, transcoders, translators or middle men...just avid, davinci or baselight to be able to cut, read or grade R3D's full stop.

its that simple :innocent:
jas

_
Click to expand...


Jas,

I wonder how easily these file based systems will actually port to r3d which will require some real time render engine and decompression.

Scratch is WAY ahead of the other developers in this area.

I am not sure why everyone assumes that software designed to look at files instead of streams will very easily be able to incorporate RED footage.

I think it will be dpx and tiff for for a while as these apps will do the work to incorporate RED r3d files when there is enough customer demand and depending on how easily it can be incorporated into the software architecture.

David
 
Code RED

Code RED

roryhinds said:
Not everyone wants to buy into Assimilate.
Click to expand...

I happen to like working with Scratch and think the guys are at Assimilate are great, but you are just as entitled to your opinion as I am. IMHO, the crux of the biscuit is price/performance ratio. If, for instance, CineForm based pipelines on higher end desktop PCs can offer you enough quality and speed then the release of the SDK could improve your experience with RED footage rather substantially.

As far as high end tools like Baselight it will be interesting to see the performance of their debayering algorithms and how well they take advantage of the RAW color information. To paraphrase an old cliche, its not the SDK - its what you do with it.

I have nowhere near the grading and finishing experience of, for instance, a Mike Most, but Scratch sure seems to offer an amazing toolset. I might not have ever investigated what Assimilate was up to if they hadn't had the native r3d support, but now that I have, I am very impressed - and so are my clients. I think it is also worth noting that Scratch is being used for some very high end work - their list of clients and projects is a who's who. Just sayin'
 
battistella said:
Jas,

I think it will be dpx and tiff for for a while as these apps will do the work to incorporate RED r3d files when there is enough customer demand and depending on how easily it can be incorporated into the software architecture.

David
Click to expand...

<Mate anything will of course be an improvement. I know it seems like red is gaining ground now but you wait, I see first hand every week the hesitation of clients and producers when the R word comes up, when these post hassles are sorted you will see some major red traction. RED is a cool buzz word at the moment and a unique on set experience but until this stuff is sorted it will be a slow road to mainstream

jas


_
 
As soon as CineForm makes available a raw converter for build 16 the game is going to change for Assimilate. Few will pay $70,000 for Scratch when they can spend half that for an eight core PC with raid, CS3, CineForm, and Speedgrade XR. With this system you can edit in 4K in real time and non destructively color correct. I predict 80 percent of Red owners will adopt CineForm, either PC or Mac after the SDK. I have nothing against Assimilate. They have provided us with the free tools, RedCine/Red Alert, we needed to start using Red. But with render times at more than ten times real time these two programs are only solutions for those with a very small volume of files to process. Full Scratch is just out of the majority of Red owner's price league. Once CineForm releases the build 16 converter we can convert to CineForm raw at about two times real time. Perhaps I should try and convince everyone that CineForm is not a good solution for Red so that my prediction will not come true. Then Jay A Kelly and I could hatch a plan using CineForm to dominate the world of digital cinema. We could split up the globe. Jay - Red states (except Texas), Australia, South America, China, UK and Guam. I'll take the rest. Oh, wait. There's Thor and, Oh Yea, there are a lot of others. My bad.
 
Jashunter said:
I see first hand every week the hesitation of clients and producers when the R word comes up, when these post hassles are sorted you will see some major red traction. RED is a cool buzz word at the moment and a unique on set experience but until this stuff is sorted it will be a slow road to mainstream

jas
Click to expand...

I agree and I see this in Toronto as well. People love the images and then the next question is invariably "what is the post work flow?"

David
 
FYI, Scratch costs nowhere near $70,000.

But, I think Cineform is going to be some great glue for Red post production. Before my production company adopted Red I did several projects with cineform as the core editorial codec, and it was a very smooth and wonderful thing.


cheers,

jt
 
Mark Crabtree said:
As soon as CineForm makes available a raw converter for build 16 the game is going to change for Assimilate. Few will pay $70,000 for Scratch when they can spend half that for an eight core PC with raid, CS3, CineForm, and Speedgrade XR. With this system you can edit in 4K in real time and non destructively color correct. I predict 80 percent of Red owners will adopt CineForm, either PC or Mac after the SDK. I have nothing against Assimilate. They have provided us with the free tools, RedCine/Red Alert, we needed to start using Red. But with render times at more than ten times real time these two programs are only solutions for those with a very small volume of files to process. Full Scratch is just out of the majority of Red owner's price league. Once CineForm releases the build 16 converter we can convert to CineForm raw at about two times real time. Perhaps I should try and convince everyone that CineForm is not a good solution for Red so that my prediction will not come true. Then Jay A Kelly and I could hatch a plan using CineForm to dominate the world of digital cinema. We could split up the globe. Jay - Red states (except Texas), Australia, South America, China, UK and Guam. I'll take the rest. Oh, wait. There's Thor and, Oh Yea, there are a lot of others. My bad.
Click to expand...

Quad core PC with Raid $15K, CineForm $2K, CS3 $1.7K, Zena 2K $3K, SpeedGrade XR $17.5K (High end grading - equivalent to full Scratch).
As to full Scratch, I was quoted about $72K at NAB. Scratch lite (No power windows was $31K. Of course with the CineForm route you can also use Color Finesse 2 for about a $200. Upgrade Charge. No power windows but you can simulate power windows in After Effects.
 
Technically more a request to Red and a little off topic, but I would like to be able to press the far right button in in camera playback and loop back to clip one, rather than having to step back with the left button through every clip to get back to the earlier shots on a full hard drive!
 
Mark Crabtree said:
Quad core PC with Raid $15K, CineForm $2K, CS3 $1.7K, Zena 2K $3K, SpeedGrade XR $17.5K (High end grading - equivalent to full Scratch).
As to full Scratch, I was quoted about $72K at NAB. Scratch lite (No power windows was $31K. Of course with the CineForm route you can also use Color Finesse 2 for about a $200. Upgrade Charge. No power windows but you can simulate power windows in After Effects.
Click to expand...

The 72K number is accurate for current list price of SCRATCH FINISH + annual maintenance/support. That includes everything that SCRATCH has and does, which goes far beyond what SCRATCH-CINE or SpeedgradeXR can do.

But... It is pretty well known that the bundle of a Skulltrail system with the NVidia 5600SDI + SCRATCH-CINE is in the low 30Ks. SCRATCH-CINE allows you to do playback, conform, primary color correction, pan/scan, reformatting, and output to any video format - in realtime.

That's actually *less* than the bundle you put together above.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
luki said:
The 72K number is accurate for current list price of SCRATCH FINISH + annual maintenance/support. That includes everything that SCRATCH has and does, which goes far beyond what SCRATCH-CINE or SpeedgradeXR can do.
Click to expand...

Speedgrade XR can do many things scratch cant do, and scratch can do many things speedgrade XR cant do.

Fully integrated 3D *one layer* colorcorrection, also with secondaries, support for raw cameras as Arri, Dalsa, cineform, si, weisscam etc, as well as operating system support for OSX, linux and finally remote collaboration tools and extremly inexpensive on-set colorcorrection tools are missing in the full scratch but are in speedgrade.

Tracker, basic 3d, better VFX are some of scratchs features which are missing in speedgrade.

if i would to have to pick just one - i wouldnt be decided which to prefer, as it depends on the movie which one is better fitting.

However, the pricing of speedgrade HD (9999€) and speedgrade XR (14999€) is something assimilate certainly cant match right now, and that is sad, because RED really introduced a much more aggressive pricing structure into the market.

compared to full-featured finishing systems (as discreet smoke i.e.) both tools have a very very reduced featureset anyhow - and and a turnkey smoke 2009 HD with storage, system and software had $64.000 list price at NAB.

The SDK is a very important step to bring prices to a reasonable level. That is important for people with tight budgets as well for houses as our who do have to plan for several networked DI/finishing seats.
 
laguun said:
However, the pricing of speedgrade HD (9999€) and speedgrade XR (14999€) is something assimilate certainly cant match right now, and that is sad, because RED really introduced a much more aggressive pricing structure into the market.
Click to expand...

Really? ;)

SCRATCH-CINE is US$17,500. SpeedgradeXR is US$19,999.

SpeedgradeHD is limited to Quicktime and AVI, which is not a market we are interested in entering.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
luki said:
Really? ;)

SCRATCH-CINE is US$17,500. SpeedgradeXR is US$19,999.
Click to expand...
The difference is that speedgrade XR features the full DI & colorcorrection, while scratchcine is exactly reduced by these features. Therefore one must compare full scratch to speedgrade.

luki said:
SpeedgradeHD is limited to Quicktime and AVI, which is not a market we are interested in entering.
Click to expand...
10bit RGB and YUV images dont care is they are contained in DPX or Aja/Blackmagic Quicktimes and AVI. They have the exact same quality on 10bit single file or sequences AVI/MOV sequences with luts.

I suppose that much more shooters using red master in qt/avi and not in .cin or .dpx.

I always recommended to assimilate to have a resolution and fileformat crippled scratch instead of a feature crippled. If there would be a similar offering as speedgrade XR from assimilate - only raw and qt/avi input for the price or scratchcine/xr, that product would sell. scratchcine isnt enough for DI & finishing, speedgrade xr and hd are - thats the main issue comparing these 2 offerings. scratchcine is a very cool daily system, not an mastering DI as full scratch or speedgrade XR.
 
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