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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Lost 2 Rentals This Week!

Mitch Gross said:
Yes, the Panasonic D5 decks will indeed accept the progressive signal. Don't hurt yourself carrying that deck to set! ;-)
Click to expand...

Nah, we just strapped it to the SteadiCam guy's back, he didn't even notice.
 
Hey Mitch,

I wish I have RELEASED build 16 to test with, but not yet.

So far Scratch has been great for HDCAM-SR.

What about a converter to go Red24p to 24Psf HDCAM-SR?

The new BlackMagic Mini Broadcast Converter, or any converter.

Can a converter board be a solution?

I think sony has Converter Boards too, as an option for the decks.

Tek

P. S. 1080p23.98/24 is usually support by HDMI divices, let's try HDMI-HDSDI mini converters?

Hopefully 1080p Playback will be send out via HDMI also in 16.

HDMI Format Support 625/25 PAL, 525/29.97 NTSC, 625/50p PAL, 525/59.94p NTSC, 1080p23.98/24, 1080i50, 1080i59.94/60, 720p50 and 720p59.94/60.
Click to expand...
SDI Format Support 625/25 PAL, 525/29.97 NTSC, 1080PsF23.98, 1080PsF24, 1080PsF25, 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60, 720p50, 720p59.94 and 720p60.
Click to expand...

BlackMagic-Design
 
Facts are getting a little segmented in this thread:)

When a HD camera is selcted to progressive, the camera outputs psf via HDSDI.
Panasonic and Sony recorders do not accept a 23.98p, 24p, 25p, 29.97p unless it is in psf form.
Apart form 720 50p and 720 60p there is no "true p" input option on a SRW1 field recorder, only psf.

Why isnt there one? Because up until now RED is the only popular camera that outputs true progresive.

Industry assumption/practice is that below 30fps signal is psf.



Mike Brennan
 
Unless I am mistake true progressive also requires 3Gb/s HD-SDI rather than the earlier 1.5Gb/s which is what exists on most current HD hardware.

The end result of PsF is the same but it is carried as two fields rather than a single frame.
 
Sycophant said:
Unless I am mistake true progressive also requires 3Gb/s HD-SDI rather than the earlier 1.5Gb/s which is what exists on most current HD hardware.

The end result of PsF is the same but it is carried as two fields rather than a single frame.
Click to expand...

It's really a Sony thing. 23.98 P can be carried on a standard 1.5G connection as a 4:2:2 signal. Segmented format probably made it easier for them to meld it into the existing product technology.
HD video really needed some more variations to make it interesting
:detective2:
 
Workflow Manual

Workflow Manual

Martin Weiss said:
Could you share those 4 pages? That would be a great help.
Click to expand...

I intend too, but I need to make the document more general (not company specific) first. Then I am happy to share. I will start a new Thread where people can give feedback and add to or correct what I have started.
 
Progressive

Progressive

When a HD camera is selcted to progressive, the camera outputs psf via HDSDI. Panasonic and Sony recorders do not accept a 23.98p, 24p, 25p, 29.97p unless it is in psf form. Apart form 720 50p and 720 60p there is no "true p" input option on a SRW1 field recorder, only psf.

Why isnt there one? Because up until now RED is the only popular camera that outputs true progressive
Click to expand...

Much of this is true, the SMPTE standard calls out both Progressive and also Segmented Progressive as options for 1920 x 1080 resolution images. Sony chooses to only use PsF, Panasonic with D-5 supports both, as do many of the latest LCD monitors and a growing number of video capture cards. Segmenting the frame into fields requires more resources and yields no image quality advantage, hence we don't support that (PsF) alternative.

Given the high volume of RED cameras shipping into the market I don't see this being an issue in the mid to long term...
 
Much of this is true, the SMPTE standard calls out both Progressive and also Segmented Progressive as options for 1920 x 1080 resolution images. Sony chooses to only use PsF, Panasonic with D-5 supports both, as do many of the latest LCD monitors and a growing number of video capture cards. Segmenting the frame into fields requires more resources and yields no image quality advantage, hence we don't support that (PsF) alternative.
Click to expand...

Thanks Stuart.

I am interested in making things work together.

Can you tell me what converter I need to put between the RED and HDCAM-SR deck?

We are happy with Scratch system and HDCAM-SR for now.

Red > converter > HDCam-SR?

What brand and model please.

Tek
 
Perhaps an even better idea than trying to kludge Red <--> HDCAM SR together would be for Red to come up with a VTR-like device. Take a look at XDCAM HD... I really like the concept. It supports a data workflow for systems that support that format, and also supports the old-school SDI-based workflow. It's like a tape workflow, except better because it shuttles instantaneously (makes online conform *a lot* faster). And you shouldn't have problems with timecode breaks.

Perhaps if Scratch could masquerade as a VTR, or Redray does the job, would open up some more workflow possibilities.

Ultimately I think a data workflow is the most ideal, but that would only happen if all vendors support the data format (well, e.g. realtime).

*This is not to say that tape-based workflows suck... they are here now, they work (the same can't be said of other workflows), and they work pretty well. But c'mon, this is Red... Red is known for being a little ambitious. Tape workflows are good... but should we really settle for that?

Disadvantages of tape: (sometimes) expensive, shuttling, conform is not always frame accurate, not highest quality (e.g. no RAW).
(Though I suppose the only way to solve all four of those problems would be a data/file-based workflow, not SDI-based. Though it'd require cooperation with Avid et all.)
 
We (at ShotWrangler) were talking loosely about the idea of producing a RED-VTR device that could emulate a VTR and play SDI out or something... But figured we're too far ourside the loop of RED to make something that effective.

I quietly hope the REDRAY can do something similar. Or maybe the SDK will hold some surprises.
 
(For some folks anyways) an ideal VTR would have most of the features in a SR deck. And that thing has pages and pages of menus for its features. Main points are...
3:2 pulldown
real-time SD downconvert
TC burn (repositionable, can change size, can show different timecodes)
Remote control
TC, sync

Somehow I doubt that RedRay would have those sorts of features (especially SD...), as nice as it would be. It seems like the direction with RedRay is for distributing 4K content, not necessarily as a workflow tool / VTR.
 
Martin,

I finally did post my RED Workflow Manual (v.1.2) in a new thread located at 4K Workflow > Apple Workflow. It's a work in progress. Cheers,

Brandon
 
Defence of editors

Defence of editors

How would you feel as an editor when your bombarded with DVCPro, P2, HDCam, HDCam SR, XDCam Red Code, Digibeta, HDV etc etc. Sometimes two formats have to melded into one or in the case of "Blue Planet" multi formats these all carry issues that need to be overcome. Gavin Finney BSC the former BSC President summed this up in British Cinematographer the industry is a mess with no recognised standard save for those that existed in film!
 
DPs and assistants have to learn all of these formats too, and the myriad cameras and quirks thereof.
Editors need to step up in a big way. I STILL get the old "my Avid is rock-solid and I don't want to update it. Do you HAVE to shoot in that goofy P2 format???"
Editors please get it together.
Harry
 
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