Lost 2 Rentals This Week!

[Harry Clark]

OK,
Just venting I suppose. Take it with a grain of salt.
I have a job Mon-Wed this week, big national spot, that they want to edit at the stage as we are shooting. Seems like the perfect Red application, no? Production has been spooked by the editor and we will be shooting with a Genesis to HDCAM SR (now THAT'S a roundabout way to cut on set) My job Thursday-Friday went D-21 because of the very same reason: editors and post people spooking production away from the Red One.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Red Team, give us a nice 1080 "clean" output so that these goofy jobs can benefit from the Red One. Forget about the preview bus... What about a hardware module that replaces the CF module on the side and does a real-time, high-quality debayer with 4:4:4 Dual Link HD-SDI? What about partnering with Sony, or Panasonic, or AJA on this one?
I've lost at least a dozen rentals this way since getting the camera. Editors are the SLOWEST in the world to pick up new skills, or update their systems... so help us on the imaging end by letting us coddle them...
I know it's a Digital Cinema Camera blah blah blah... RAW blah blah blah... but...
Please? Help?
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Darren Orange]

Can't you get a clean 1080P 4:2:2 out of RED right now? Why would you need anything more if its for broadcast? I might be wrong just a thought.

edit: Better yet....why not just get an extra camera body...to play back the data once you record it. It would for all purposes work the same as a HDCAM SR deck, except for the controls.

 

[Obin Olson]

ohhh that sucks glad I don't rent mine out never been a rental guy myself

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Can't you get a clean 1080P 4:2:2 out of RED right now? Why would you need anything more if its for broadcast? I might be wrong just a thought.

edit: Better yet....why not just get an extra camera body...to play back the data once you record it. It would for all purposes work the same as a HDCAM SR deck, except for the controls.

You get 720P 4:2:2 out of the camera, and it's just a quick debayering for monitoring purposes that has some artifacts (particularly, some noise).

Using another RED camera as a playback device doesn't work, all you will be reading are the QT files that the camera generates, again, with 720P as your only output option. I'm not sure what the resolutions and formats are of the three sizes of QT files that are generated along with the 4K RAW R3D files, but if 1080P was one of them and it looked acceptable, they could edit with those I suppose. Otherwise they would need to convert the R3D files into 1080P.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

OK,
Just venting I suppose. Take it with a grain of salt.
I have a job Mon-Wed this week, big national spot, that they want to edit at the stage as we are shooting. Seems like the perfect Red application, no? Production has been spooked by the editor and we will be shooting with a Genesis to HDCAM SR (now THAT'S a roundabout way to cut on set) My job Thursday-Friday went D-21 because of the very same reason: editors and post people spooking production away from the Red One.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Red Team, give us a nice 1080 "clean" output so that these goofy jobs can benefit from the Red One. Forget about the preview bus... What about a hardware module that replaces the CF module on the side and does a real-time, high-quality debayer with 4:4:4 Dual Link HD-SDI? What about partnering with Sony, or Panasonic, or AJA on this one?
I've lost at least a dozen rentals this way since getting the camera. Editors are the SLOWEST in the world to pick up new skills, or update their systems... so help us on the imaging end by letting us coddle them...
I know it's a Digital Cinema Camera blah blah blah... RAW blah blah blah... but...
Please? Help?
Cheers,
Harry

It blows me away the level of techno stupidity that seems to rule at these "upper levels" of the business. There must be some good reason they are so many levels above me, but it's stories like these that give me hope.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

It blows me away the level of techno stupidity that seems to rule at these "upper levels" of the business. There must be some good reason they are so many levels above me, but it's stories like these that give me hope.

I can assure you Shawn, the higher you go, the "stupider" it gets.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

So how are they going to "digitize" on set? They would need to shoot at the post house. LOL

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

I can assure you Shawn, the higher you go, the "stupider" it gets.

I would love to be stupid!

 

[Andrew Walker]

It's funny that it seems that most of these anti Red people are just to stuborn to learn something new. Most of the bitching that I've heard has been people being unfamiliar with a new camera. I think most of these top level people are just use to knowing everything and Red must mess with their heads because it's so easy to deal with the footage...if you know what your doing of course.

 

[Stuart English]

1080p playback

1080p playback

Using another RED camera as a playback device doesn't work, all you will be reading are the QT files that the camera generates, again, with 720P as your only output option. Otherwise they would need to convert the R3D files into 1080P.

Actually, on Build 16, that's exactly what the camera playback is doing.. creating 1080p from the recorded .R3D files. On Build 15 and earlier its limited to 720p playback from the .R3D files. The QuickTime files are not used by the camera, they are generated by the camera for use by QuickTime enabled computer systems.

 

[Derek Wiesehahn]

I have found the same thing. Editors are very set in their ways as far as workflow is concerned. They do not like change and will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the Red workflow.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I have found the same thing. Editors are very set in their ways as far as workflow is concerned. They do not like change and will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the Red workflow.

It's a massive amount of "mis-information".

Anyone who read a few posts on Reduser or opened Redcine a few times claims to be a "Red Workflow" expert.

We spend a lot of time - explaining to people what SOMEONE TOLD THEM, how they THINK it works, or what they HEARD - is just WRONG.

Most of the time, we just tell people now, "forget everything you heard, everything you read, this is how we would handle your project, and these are you options."

They stop kicking and screaming pretty quickly when they see how simple it can be.

 

[Harky Jewett]

Would spitting out to Prores as the cards came in really be that big a deal?

What about just editing with the proxies (providing you could have a tower on the stage)?

Maybe I'm not understanding what they want, but it seems like something could be worked out.


On a similar note, some friends of mine took a trip to a post house for a class and talked to one of their DI guys (won't say the name, but rhymes with Boto-Mem).

The DI guy was talking about digital cinema cameras (his favorite was the Genesis). When he got to the Red, he said "he didn't really want to bash the camera", but then preceded to bash the camera.

He said it was impossible to get an accurate preview of what you're shooting. He claimed the camera shoots "stretched 2K" at best (I really wish I had been there for that gem). But most importantly he said the camera has no post workflow whatsoever.

I have no idea what to do about situations like this, except to say that it will take time for people to learn.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

In these sorts of situations I feel it would be good for camera owners to have friendly technical editors available to help explain things to other editors and worried post-supervisors who are inexperienced with RED. I know that in Auckland there are a few of us who have been called upon to sooth frayed nerves before a RED shoot.

Even if you know the answers yourself it can help to have a third party available to who can calm the nerves while not seeming to have a vested interest.

 

[Paul Hazlett]

This has been an ongoing quest since 1080 was lost in the great firmware wars of '07. someone was working on a outboard box before but....

I have played back 1080 from the camera to a pani 17" and the framing is different. I get the look room as well on my monitor which makes for some odd
playback framiing, at least I think its the look room, so no go to record. unless
your shooting with the look room as picture which is coming no?

I just shot player intros for AFL division game and would have loved to show
ESPN the benefits of Red but that kind of turn around is not there for Red.

Scarlet....your wanted on set.

 

[Mike Prevette]

the most impressive and simplest ways to deal with stuff like this is to arrange a quick demo. Anyone that thinks the Red workflow is anything short of amazing just doesnt know what they are looking at. I've been able to set up effective onset editing several times for clients of differing levels and garnished nothing but awe from clients agencies and post houses. it's just not as complicated as they think it is.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

On a similar note, some friends of mine took a trip to a post house for a class and talked to one of their DI guys (won't say the name, but rhymes with Boto-Mem).

The Los Angeles location of Boto-Mem?

The DI guy was talking about digital cinema cameras (his favorite was the Genesis). When he got to the Red, he said "he didn't really want to bash the camera", but then preceded to bash the camera.

He said it was impossible to get an accurate preview of what you're shooting. He claimed the camera shoots "stretched 2K" at best (I really wish I had been there for that gem). But most importantly he said the camera has no post workflow whatsoever.

He's welcome at Offhollywood anytime - I can show him how our 5th "all Red" feature film is moving through post with "no workflow whatsoever."

He's really an HDTI guy - you know - so PRO-GENESIS - with the amazing HD TAPE INTERMEDIATE workflow and all -

 

[Paul Hazlett]

Would spitting out to Prores as the cards came in really be that big a deal?

What about just editing with the proxies (providing you could have a tower on the stage)?

Maybe I'm not understanding what they want, but it seems like something could be worked out.


On a similar note, some friends of mine took a trip to a post house for a class and talked to one of their DI guys (won't say the name, but rhymes with Boto-Mem).

The DI guy was talking about digital cinema cameras (his favorite was the Genesis). When he got to the Red, he said "he didn't really want to bash the camera", but then preceded to bash the camera.

He said it was impossible to get an accurate preview of what you're shooting. He claimed the camera shoots "stretched 2K" at best (I really wish I had been there for that gem). But most importantly he said the camera has no post workflow whatsoever.

I have no idea what to do about situations like this, except to say that it will take time for people to learn.

Just as the camera was a "scam" in 06 so is the workflow in '08.
patience and arrival of the SDK will make true believers out of the post world.
mark my words...not you Mark Pederson, just a figure of speech.....

 

[Harry Clark]

Sycophant,
You're "spot-on" with the vested interest comment. Clearly I, as the Red camera owner, have a vested interest. I back off pretty quickly, though, when I see others working on the producers, agency, etc. with the misinformation about the workflow. I don't want to be the guy that pushes a certain camera on EVERYONE for EVERY project. I just want to shoot. It's a bummer I cannot use the Red on the jobs this week, but I'll still get lenses, etc. on for some rental income. Also, owning many different cameras gives my clients lots of options. So I can't really complain. It's just too bad we can't have our cake and eat it too... i.e., have cinema-quality 4K but real-time 1080p.
Red Guy, I guess the plan is to have an additional HDCAM SR deck just for the guy to digitize from (at an additional rental); not sure how that's faster than proxies though!
And Mark is VERY "spot on" with his comments, as usual!
Anyway, I'm over it. But it's worth discussing I guess...
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Bruce Allen]

The Fotokem bashing is pretty hilarious.

Be aware that there is a difference between their student tour division and the guys doing the high end DI projects.

I too did NOT have a good experience with Fotokem as a student (flex file nightmares, crummy looking dailies, etc). The tour guy was patronizing too.

Since working with them professionally on projects my views took a complete 180 however. People like Jose Parra, John Nicolard etc really know what they are doing.

I'd work with them in a heartbeat.

Yes Mark, I'd work with you in a hearbeat too, of course!

But this bashing just makes Reduser and RED (by association) look stupid and unprofessional, like a bunch of arrogant film students complaining about the company tour. Like me a few years ago.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com