RED, ALPHA, BETA, etc.

[fightordie]

Well, Kodak updates stocks every couple of years, but not everyone is happy about that either. It's not a "beta" or "alpha" question, it's a question of continuity in work; at some point, some people just want stability so they can not only explore a format to its limits, but also match new footage to footage shot perhaps a year ago.

For everyone out there who likes being on the cutting edge of technology, there are people who just want a camera technology to work so they can concentrate on other aspects of production and just know that the camera will consistently take good pictures.

Maybe in this day and age of sensors attached to computers for cameras, this sense of continuity and security is a thing of the past and we'll just have to live with constant software upgrades, just like with our home computers. But obviously with your home computers, some software is more stable than others...

But don't knock people who just want the RED camera to work without errors on their important jobs. Many times you aren't working for clients or producers who want to be on the cutting edge of anything, and they aren't tolerant of experimentation with new technology on their dime.

So it's important that RED develop an honest reputation as being stable and reliable.

But I also agree with what Mark is saying -- there's a reason it's called BETA! So just be sure when you communicate to the world about your problems, that you acknowledge that you are working with beta software. In fact, it's probably a good thing you're having problems with beta software because no one writes bug-free software code right from the start. So the faster that these errors are found by users and corrected, the faster the software will move from beta status.

Perhaps discussions involving beta software should be put under one subforum so it is visually obvious when a producer scrolls these lists which bugs are with beta software and what are with stabilized software or hardware.

As usual David you are right on the money.

 

[Häakon]

maybe I should cut and paste them all into a new thread called "ARMCHAIR EXPERTS"?

Haha, no need. I know there are plenty... I just choose to ignore them. There will always be unreasonable people in every walk of life, but I do think that the scrutiny a lot of people give RED is just. Until I feel completely confident that my camera is never going to give me problems on set, they need that pressure. But it does sound like things are getting better.

I think we're on the same page, no worries. Thanks for your input!

 

[Karl H]

I have re-written this post many times, but in fear of having my words turned against me or Red community backlash, I'll keep it simple.

My suggestions is to not overhype future builds. I personally think this is where the 'bitching' comes from. A lot of it. I don't think people mind using a beta build, really. But when they are told as part of the upcoming release 'black sun now fixed' 'codec issues a thing of the past', 'the camera is now out of beta'. These arn't things purely related to build 16 - some of these are issues have been promised a long time ago, and the problems still arise across current builds today.

If you officially communicate this as fact, it's hard to say people are whining if they compain about it when it turns out otherwise. Especially as an expanding user base are expecting a finished product and dont spend their lives on this board.

I've read posts where people unsure about using build 16 have been encouraged by Red to do so as it's 'more stable than any of the previous release builds'.

I'm not complaining, just offering an explaination for what is happening here (as I cant even shoot till I get a canon mount!), Build 16 was a decent improvement over 15 in the noise dept and chicken scratch (from what I can see in the test footage section), but I think I was expecting it to be more than it was after the hype it got. Perhaps I expect too much.

No doubt Red has made a monumental camera; they work tirelessly, and are geting close to the release build everyone wants to see.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I respect the openness of RED and this forum.

It takes strength to do things this way.

Handle criticism and all.

But I think it is very beneficial for both the company and the consumers, because the latter get to have the camera\fixes\improvements they really want and the former get tonnes of feedback and ideas for current and future products.

The quantitative accumulation of practical experience with a given device may lead to a quantum leap in the device's functionality and robustness.

Yeah, I like to play with these (other) *RED* sayings. :biggrin:

RED has 2000+ cameras out in the open with close to 5000 near the end of the year.

These are colossal amounts of practical experience and feedback and I think the other companies are also peeping actively on REDUser, cause they just cannot get that kind of feedback in *their own ways*.

I only recently began to test with .R3D files and RedCine and I'm amazed with what one can do, even with very simple tools.

Yes, RedCine [currently] looks buggy, but it's in beta.... and betas are supposed to be buggy.

Nevertheless, even with my limited knowledge\experience with these things, it's obvious that one can achieve anything with a RED camera if he knows how.

Know-How and proper shooting\processing\grading are the real key now and people can achieve any look they want.

The tool is here...

And it costs ten times less than any other comparable camera.

I think this is special.

I like to witness special things... thanks for the show. :biggrin:

And please bring my lovely Scarlet to me sooner... I feel so lonely. :waaa:

 

[David Wyatt]

The over-reaction to some of the Beta bugs does surprise me. Obviously Build 16 is in Beta and you get bugs in Betas - that's the whole point. But then I look at companies like Microsoft with vast resources and a much bigger team than Red and they still manage to bring out an electronics device like the XBox 360 (which I would guess is simpler/more straightforward than the Red) with a fault so bad it permanently bricks the device leading to a billion dollar repair bill! Then there's a company the size of NVIDIA announcing that there are serious faults with many of it graphics chips which will lead to a huge repair/recall bill (cue the tumbling of their stock). I think in comparison, and pound-for-pound Red are punching well above their weight and what they are doing is a minor miracle.

What I will say is that if you get all your customers to be your Beta testers it's a double-edged sword - on the plus side this means Red has many more testers than it could rustle up itself to iron out inevitable bugs (much quicker than it they did it all in-house), but the downside is sometimes a cacophany of panic and negativity that must at times drive them to distraction (mostly coming from people that have taken the gamble against Red's own advice of using it on professional jobs and potentially putting themselves in difficult positions with producers). Of course many Build 16 "pioneers" are diligently emailng Red log reports and this is to be commended because it means we all get a stable build sooner rather than later - so thanks be to the constructive Build 16 "pioneers". Amen...

 

[M Most]

For everyone out there who likes being on the cutting edge of technology, there are people who just want a camera technology to work so they can concentrate on other aspects of production and just know that the camera will consistently take good pictures.

An important point to remember. To the enthusiastic Red camera owner, bugs in beta software are annoyances, things for Red to work out with the help of their users. But to a producer who lost time or material due to any of these issues, it's just a camera and/or post system that doesn't work.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I don't think RED should be compared to the Microsoft XBox; it would be more apt to compare it to an Arricam or Sony HD camera in terms of reliability and stability. That's the sort of standard that the film industry is going to use, whether it is fair or not.

That said, I found the RED fairly reliable myself after 6 weeks straight of shooting in very hard conditions. But with the caveat that I carried a back-up RED and occasionally had to use it. I think the camera is definitely getting close to being as reliable as any other camera being used in the industry.

People talk about how it works just fine if you know what you are doing, but honestly, anything that is going to be used on productions has to handle being misused and abused. That's just the reality of production; if something can be broken, it will be broken.

RED keeps getting better and better every day so in the long term, I wouldn't worry about its success in being integrated into mainstream production.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

It is my opinion, that at this stage - RED should expand the Alpha testing team with a few strategic choices, people shooting different types of material, formats, locations - and slow down the "public" release of BETA builds - until the Alpha team has 10 full days to test and report. And their should be a password protected "Alpha web forum". And I mean 10 days for a build - so, make a new build during the test period - you RESET the ten day counter.

I would hate to see myself outside of that since I've taken the hits of the latest releases all over the world now. Please RED don't forget little me if you decide to go that way.

My credentials are that I've always learnt how to run before I walk :innocent:

PS Stuart shooting the green screen test in studio tomorrow, maybe that will give me some cred hehehehe (will send you the log afterwards)


Fredrik Callinggard

 

[Florin Andrei]

What some companies do when releasing beta software is to make it bleeding obvious that it's something very different from regular releases. It's on a different page. It has big warnings all over. It's not included in the news ticker with the regular releases, but in a separate list. When you click on it, it doesn't just start to download, but a confirmation pops up, saying something along the lines "This may burn down your house and/or kill your dog. Proceed with download, yes/no?"

On one hand, this scares away some people, therefore reducing the amount of beta testing. On the other hand, perhaps those are exactly the people that need to be scared away. Moreover, when someone does complain about crashes, after being pestered by all those warnings, he/she quickly gets buried by ridicule on the forums.

So it's a balancing act between more testing with more risk of bad rumors, and less testing but with more reliable (and emotionally stable) testers. Somebody has to walk the fine line and decide just how close they want to put the beta to the regular release:
- right next to it, almost indistinguishable
- erect a huge wall in the middle, make it very clear they are different things
- or some combination of the above.

 

[number6]

I would just like to say thanks to all who have participated in the beta program, eagerly in most cases. My oun choice was to delay the shipment of my two cameras until Build 16 is a stable release... did not even want Build 15 to ever be installed.

I expect that to happen before too much longer, and seeing things like the low light shots posted by Emmanuel Cambier and the feedback of others, (including problems that RED team will likely have under control before stable release) I expect smooth operation.

Just want to say thanks to the intrepid.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

It seems to me most people are complaining about codec errors. The same errors that are in Build 15 not just in the Beta of Build 16. Sorry if I'm rude... I swear I'm a fanboy too.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I would just like to say thanks to all who have participated in the beta program, eagerly in most cases. My oun choice was to delay the shipment of my two cameras until Build 16 is a stable release... did not even want Build 15 to ever be installed.

I expect that to happen before too much longer, and seeing things like the low light shots posted by Emmanuel Cambrier and the feedback of others, (including problems that RED team will likely have under control before stable release) I expect smooth operation.

Just want to say thanks to the intrepid.

You lose a lot of fun that way...

 

[Mike Prevette]

It seems to me most people are complaining about codec errors. The same errors that are in Build 15 not just in the Beta of Build 16. Sorry if I'm rude... I swear I'm a fanboy too.

They occur far more often and are more repeatable in build 16 IMHO.

 

[Jannard]

Tomorrow we will release a build that takes care of 99% of the codec errors for Build 16. A few days later we will post the one that (hopefully) eliminates them altogether. Working as fast as we can.

Jim

 

[Steve Gibby]

Tomorrow we will release a build that takes care of 99% of the codec errors for Build 16. A few days later we will post the one that (hopefully) eliminates them altogether. Working as fast as we can.

Jim

Saweeeet...

Thanks for your tireless work RED TEAM...much appreciated

 

[cinepost35]

Great News Jim thanks for the update and thanks to the RED TEAM for all your hard work.

 

[Tico Llaurador]

Thanks, Jim. Even though I've never encountered such an error (either on B15 or B16 3.1.5 or 3.1.6), as much as I've tried really hard to get it in bright, hi-con scenes with lots of detail, shadows and quick movement within frame, as well as motion drifting in and out of both highlights and shadow areas. No dice. Tough luck.

Why do I do this? Just out of "scientific curiosity", while I test and get used to my own camera after delivery. Have sent Stuart a couple of log files, but I'm sure that wasn't what he was after.

That's because the worst I've encountered this far have been dropped frames within situations that really push the performance envelope of the CF bus, under which I wouldn't be shooting on any given day anyway. But it's good to know where the limits lie. That's what I'm after. Learn the camera's limits, which obviosuly is a perpetual moving target, thanks to the hard work of the RED team.

So, whatever you come out with, I'm sure it'll be better than excellent, at least as far as I'm concerned.

For that, again, thank you!

 

[number6]

You lose a lot of fun that way...

Unless I had codec errors... then I might have been one of the BLEEP! BLEEP! BLEEPers.:angry01: :biggrin:

 

[Gunleik Groven]

You could shoot 15. Has been tick'ing away almost uneventfully boring here.

I think saying 15 is unusable is a bit of an overstatement. It's more like: learn what doesn't work, and there's a surprising multitude which does work completely boringly well...

I haven't gone 16 either, yet... Will this weekend, though.

Gunleik

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Just a thank you note to all of the testers, alpha and beta...

RED gets to pound out issues much faster thanks to its loyal base of users who are ready to battle-test its cameras and provide feedback.

This benefits everyone and speeds up the process immeasurably. Yes, there are frustrations involved and a process as open as this one takes a lot of courage on RED's part.

But issues get resolved much faster with as many users as possible banging away on the codec. And when the process is open, we also have the opportunity to diagnose our own issues by seeing what other users are seeing. This is an invaluable education and helps everyone understand the parameters of the camera's performance in a broad variety of environments.

Keep the mojo flowing, RED, don't change a thing....