RED, ALPHA, BETA, etc.

[Mark L. Pederson]

so ... I feel a bit compelled to share some opinions on RED and the subject of ALPHA and BETA testing, and posts on REDUSER.

It is somewhat amazing to me how people are OVER reacting to the codec errors in Build 16.

Now, let's step back for a moment.

RED has done something very risky and rather "unprecedented". They have, in fact, developed this camera in front of the world. In an open environment (REDUSER.NET), allowing all sorts of folks to post questions, comments and ideas. And I mean "all sorts". The good, the bad, the ... insane. Competing companies post, award winning cinematographers post, and disgruntled competitors post.

While I can't speak for Jim or RED, this obviously comes with advantages and disadvantages to RED - and anyone with an MBA would most likely tell you that developing a new disruptive technology in a public "open" forum is nothing short of business suicide. I don't have an MBA - Jim doesn't either - we are both "drop outs". I mean, think about it, they are basically telling the competition what they are working on. What's coming next.

The basic advantage of this "public development" is that RED can hear feedback and ideas directly from it's customers and potential customers during development. So, for example, they intend not to make a lens with metric markings - everybody screams bloody murder - they make a change and offer the lens with metric markings.

The basic disadvantage of this "public development" is that the public can read various posts about problems and issues people are having and make a judgment on the camera performance or stability.

Let's just say that when the Genesis was used on Superman Returns - isn't wasn't blogged on a public forum. If it was, it might have caused some serious concern to others considering using the camera.

Further, Red has adopted what is basically a "public beta" testing program. They post a new build on their site and say "AS THIS IS A BETA BUILD, THIS FIRMWARE IS RECOMMENDED FOR PREVIEW AND TESTING PURPOSES ONLY. IT IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE ON COMMERCIAL PRODUCTIONS."

Now, this is an even bigger risk. Because ANYONE with a camera can download the beta build, test it, and post about it.

Yes, Red also releases Alpha builds to a small number of folks, including Offhollywood.

But often the time from the release of the Alpha to the release of the "public beta" is days and often too short in my opinion to extensively test. As far as I know, ALL of the folks on the "Alpha list" are working professionals, so often "testing" happens around real jobs.

Some folks, like Offhollywood, will occasionally test on real jobs - but we know the risks, and we have back-ups in place and we don't scream bloody murder when we hit a bug - it's what we signed up for. We shot an entire feature film on an unreleased Alpha of Build 10.

Timing of Alpha and Beta releases is certainly RED's call - and obviously, the sooner it's in more hands - the sooner you will likely find issues if there are any.

I see many, many posts of REDUSERS asking for Alpha builds - "gimme gimme gimme" - and while I am sure many are more than "qualified" - I am sure many do not understand what it really means to work with alpha anything, and that it takes time and actual work to provide any kind of constructive feedback - and it also takes good "trouble shooting skills".

from Wikipedia -

An early adopter or lighthouse customer is an early customer of a given company, product, or technology.

Typically this will be a large, sophisticated customer that, in addition to using the vendor's product or technology, will also provide considerable and candid feedback to help the vendor refine its future product releases, as well as the associated means of distribution, service, and support.

The relationship is synergistic, with the customer having early (and sometimes unique, or at least uniquely early) access to an advantageous new product or technology.

Sometimes, and this is just MY PERSONAL OPINION, I feel like Jim listens "too much" to REDUSER.

People put "pressure" on RED to release a build - so IMHO - a beta build might be rushed to "public release" - And again, there are lots of advantages to get these beta builds out into the wild - but there are going to be BUGS. Some bugs get eliminated with one line of code - sometimes one character - others take days, even weeks or more just to isolate. This is all "par for the course".

But things are different now.

MANY MORE people are shooting RED on professional jobs. More people are considering RED on BIG, BIG, BIG jobs. The stakes are getting higher.

But I also feel like REDUSER'S are getting GREEDIER. More demanding of Red. Passing more judgment - deciding themselves, for example, what is a hardware limitation or not - as if they know every mm of the circuit boards inside the Red One.

I just don't get it.

Ask for every feature you want. Tell Red why you want them. That is CONSTRUCTIVE. Don't like something? Tell Red why you don't and suggest a solution. That is CONSTRUCTIVE.

Are you having an problem?

ASK for help - if I'm on line - I'll do my best to offer some advice, and so will others.

Codec errors in a BETA BUILD!!! Soderbergh didn't have proper meta-data. All he had was FILENAMES. He made two features.

Stop for moment and put it in perspective. Not the camera for you, that's okay. I'll take yours.

 

[Jarred Land]

great post Mark.

2001-2100 emails should go out tonight. the 2100-2200 will be in the next couple days.

 

[Harry Clark]

All true, Mark.
But I hope that soon we can move beyond the "beta" stage of things and have a rock-solid platform. And that we introduce new features and improvements in a way that most users who are busy making pictures, and not testing every day, will not have their professional lives disrupted.
I have not yet loaded 16 because it's a one-way street, and I value stability and reliability over new features. 15 is ROCK-SOLID on my camera and that to me is more important that jumping on the newest stuff.
Now if we could downgrade, as in the past, I might be tempted.
And yes, public development is a risky proposition, with risks and rewards. But you cannot fault people who are having codec errors on real jobs feeling a little upset when they were assured that these errors were "a thing of the past".
But I think the Red Team all have thick skins and will soldier on, despite some of the rudeness and (sometimes) constructive criticism here.
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Jan Reiff]

you hit the point. great post.


btw
i am not worried about betas and alphas or codec errors, i am more worried about the fact i am getting no camera right now ... (i am in 2001-2200).:wacko:

 

[Christian Edwards]

i suppose you'd bypass curtain legalities for/of company direction on a user forum too , nothing is official but i guess that's a good thing in a Red-sense

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Thank you for posting that, Mark! Needed to be said.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Great post Mark.

The basic advantage of this "public development" is that RED can hear feedback and ideas directly from it's customers and potential customers during development. So, for example, they intend not to make a lens with metric markings - everybody screams bloody murder - they make a change and offer the lens with metric markings.

I posted in the thread about the new lenses with metric marking, Jim has turned (some of) us into spoiled brats who think that the more they whine and complain about something, the more likely they will get what they want.

I mean, think about it, they are basically telling the competition what they are working on. What's coming next.

I love how open the development process is. I hope that never changes. The one thing I hate most about Apple is their ridiculous secrecy. Businesses need to know what products are coming and when, so they can plan their equipment purchases accordingly.

I haven't upgraded to BETA Build 16 yet. It just isn't a responsible thing to do when you have clients who need to know exactly what the limits of the camera are. This isn't easy to do with the limited testing of a BETA build that has just been released.

 

[Jonas Rejman]

Very well said.

It is indeed a razor-sharp edge. Especially the Betas in productions.

For example, I am getting "rumor-guys" feedback through feedback of betatesters in Czech Republic. Those people almost never actually used the RED. But they all seem only to want to see the bad, because that is what mostly will is written about. Then, they do not check themselves what the real issue is. They rely on rumors. They do not understand, that the camera is a computer, with an "RED OS", that is under constant development. They judge very fast, and very easy.

The only thing to convince them, is to show them real projects, done with the RED. That way I was able to convince 3 other guys about this system. They did not believe the RED performance on snow.

The bottom line is, that RED convinces with a deadly combination of quality and economics. The producers, who understand and get the people, who know how to work with the RED system, will be very happy.

I think, that in the long run, those rumor-guys are not a "thread" at all. Sure, people will do mistakes with this system. Those will probably do mistakes with any system, so it is not something RED specific.

But then, there will come others, who will be able to exploit the full potential, and know how to avoid the problems. And the "rumor-guys" will then very fast change their opinion and sing odes on the RED. Because they did not have an opinion in the first place. They may cause confusion in the short, but not in the long.

I guess RED is here for the very long. And that is great!
Again, my respect to the RED Team!

 

[Christian Edwards]

2001-2100 emails should go out tonight. the 2100-2200 will be in the next couple days.

:gun:can you change that to 2227

 

[liquidigital]

Mark these are great points.

 

[Jarred Land]

I love how open the development process is. I hope that never changes. The one thing I hate most about Apple is their ridiculous secrecy. Businesses need to know what products are coming and when, so they can plan their equipment purchases accordingly.

After experiencing the onslaught of negative abuse we get as a result from having an open development process, I can sure see why companies do it the other way. Sometimes it sure isn't easy...

Good thing we arn't pussies or the openness would of closed up along time ago. And thank god we get a good dose of positive comments along the way, because I really dont think we would know how to do things "normal".

 

[Mark Phelan]

And thank god we get a good dose of positive comments along the way, because I really dont think we would know how to do things "normal".

Nor would we have a Red camera. Innovation always takes risk. When the status quo becomes the norm, creativity suffers. Its name is Red, not Beige.

 

[Paolo Tinari]

i'm glad you are not a pussy for various reasons including keeping on the openness

 

[Noah Kadner]

Red is not the guy in the PG-13 movie everyone's *really* hoping makes it happen. It's more like the guy in the rated R movie, you know, the guy you're not sure whether or not you like yet.

-Noah

 

[Jan Reiff]

thanks jarred for this info about next batch.

@harry
i agree with you, and i think its exactly this open forum and this many constructive discussions between the company and its customers that will move this camera to a titan rock solid platform.

i wish other companies would listen so much to their customers...

 

[Steve Gibby]

Well said Mark...I agree 110%

As you know, like you, I've been an alpha and beta tester with RED from the very beginning of RED as a company. That involved placing the camera and accessories into very demanding real-world production situations, evaluating performance, and reporting that performance along with critiques back to RED. To me, it has been both a challenge and an honor to be given the opportunity to alpha and bata test RED products. Like you, I own my company, do real world productions, and have never been a RED employee.

In business, risk and return are inseparably connected. If you risk a lot, you stand to either gain or lose a lot. Jim and RED Team are risk takers, with their alpha and beta testing approach being just one vestige of that. I respect them for taking the risky path to product development - when other entities in this industry traditionally have chosen to play it safe and develop products behind closed doors.

There is no such thing as a perfect product. All products are works in progress that quit development at some level and went into production. Real world professional trial and input throughout the development cycle enables warp speed development of new products - something RED has achieved.

Some RED products have had some bugs in alpha, beta, and release - but RED Team, the alpha/beta testers, and this community of posters here on RED User have all helped develop RED products by giving RED feedback. The constructive input from testers and this RED User community have helped RED immensely in creating their products. To be sure, there are some "keyboard heroes" here who feel the need to drag every new real or supposed problem with RED products into a new thread here so they can showboat for their friends. Somehow they think they're the only ones who can recognize the positive and negative in a product and point it out to RED. They don't seem to grasp that those threads are the one tenth of the suggestion iceberg that is above water in plain view, with the other nine tenths of the constructive input iceberg being out of sight below the water - that huge portion of suggestions and input that is sent directly to RED via email and PM, which gets the glitches solved faster (which we're all interested in), and in the process saves RED Team precious time in getting to their goals with a small, time-challenged team of workers.

Again, well said Mark. I'll join with you in saying it has been a real pleasure being an alpha and beta tester of RED products from the very beginning. Thanks for that opportunity RED...

 

[Jason Diamond]

Mark is 100% right.
it is up to the individual the take what they want/need from the RED experience. there are issues that still needs to be worked out of course. nothing is perfect but given the price point and state of development and that RED is NOT a public company we should all feel extremely grateful to have the inside look at the company and perhaps even steer the ship a little while DAD takes a nap.
that being said it is up to the user to make the proper decision for their project as to how to proceed alpha beta whatever and leave it at that. i think RED has been pretty good at giving the user fairly stable platforms from which to tell their stories and the good far outweighs the bad.
i spoke extensively with people on soderberghs team during their summer of shooting the 2 features and heard horror stories and great joys but the thru line was that the RED team was right there with them literally every step of the way and were writing code and making changes during prod and diggin in deep to make the process feasible. that is an extreme level of committment and should not be taken lightly.
granted they had given the production a almost pre-alpha camera but that besides the point.

go RED!

 

[Raul Gonzo]

It,s funny how so many people will beg to be part of the ALPHA & BETA tests- and then afterwards complain about bugs (!) This is how technology works, even the big boys have many bumps in the road after their product is released to the public *cough-microsoft_windows* *cough-apple_leopard*
-I think I need a drink of water...

 

[Jarred Land]

thanks jarred for this info about next batch.

@harry
i agree with you, and i think its exactly this open forum and this many constructive discussions between the company and its customers that will move this camera to a titan rock solid platform.

i wish other companies would listen so much to their customers...

no problem man.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Mark,

I could not have put it better my self, hehe.


I indeed felt the need to make a similar post, but didn't do so, as I don't have the experience yet as many others like you and Gibby have, and so was hopping for this thread to have come out much earlier, but it did come nonetheless!


You have hit the marks on most of the points I wanted to make, and some, RED really did, and still is, going way out of the limp to please its customers, and yes they are making a profitable product and therefor of their own interest is the attention to Customer relations and support, but what they do is far past Great Customer service, is simply the Best attention and Customer service any company I ever knew and dealt with has ever offered their customers!!!


I admit that some fill I should not involve my self to much in this type of discussions as I have received and sold all my Three cameras, (which doing so give me more pain then when both of my Kidneys were removed, along with three ribs) but nonetheless I have and am employing REDUSERS with their RED ONE cameras for my Projects, and in the process of Purchasing several cameras, (again), unfortunately in life "Everything can change, and usually Does" but my unconditional Loyalty is with RED, and their incredible working force of just great fellows that are responsive and ready to assist in any matters, even at the most add hours and days, it is almost as if RED is a 24/7 Company and with an unlimited numbers of "ELFs".


ciao