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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is 1k more really worth $24,000 more

Illya,
I for one appreciate your posts. It's good to have more varied voices from the industry here. I wish that a few more CMLers would join too.
The best discussions here are never the ones where 87 people in a row post "Great job Jim!!!" (although I agree with that sentiment) but discussions that evolve, have differing opinions, and a few key players to steer the discussion and keep rudeness in check. We all learn that way.
Cheers,
Harry
 
Originally Posted by Tetsuo
hey, we are talking of about 3 megapixels difference, between the two cameras!
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I don't think so - as I said earlier "By my calculations it's 5,308,416 pixels (5.3 megapixels) bigger than 4K. That's 1.56 times (or 56%) bigger."

That's a lot of pixels...
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Well said, Stephen; I have nothing to add. My point was in the same direction: it is not difficult at all to understand that Epic is another planet in comparison to Red One. This huge amount of pixel is more then enough to make it a camera of higher, different class. If we were supposed to clearly see a big difference between ordinary DV and DVCPRO - as the difference in price suggested - then how could we have difficulty in noticing a 5,3 Megapixel difference?
I feel quite comfortable.
 
The best prediction I've heard that would justify the price is that it has a beam splitter and two image sensors getting different exposures for greatly increased dynamic range. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_dynamic_range_imaging, but of course you can make the tone curve look however you want, not only unrealistic like these examples.)

I don't understand the fuss about rolling shutter. People shooting 35mm (Arri's at least) seem to be able to live with the spinning shutter.
 
RED is taking over.... Blockbusters are already full fledge using Red One Today. I am sure Red One, Epic and Scarlet will get tons of use for projects that will see the white and silver screens. Here One. I'm sure it has plenty of VFX work to be done also.

GI Joe
 
Chris Newman said:
I don't understand the fuss about rolling shutter. People shooting 35mm (Arri's at least) seem to be able to live with the spinning shutter.
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I think the real issue with a rolling shutter (as opposed to a spinning one on film) isn't shear (though that can be a problem for some VFX work), it's how the image reacts to strobes or elements that occur faster than the shutter can read them out. Obviously, this happened to some extent on film; however, I think the difference is that when this happens on film, the edge of the spinning shutter is blurred by the motion, and the resulting artifact is much more pleasing to the eye than the hard-lined edge that a rolling shutter produces.

Also, a slow or poorly implemented rolling shutter will produce jello-like footage when the camera shakes because the hard line of the rolling shutter is likely to duplicate or displace image lines as the camera jostles (hope that makes sense). This isn't a problem with a spinning shutter. You just get more motion blur.

I think it's somewhat analogous in a way to the problems people have with highlight handling on digital. It's not that film doesn't blow out, because it does; it's that on a digitally acquired image, there is a hard clip on blown out areas, which is visually much less appealing than the roll-off that film has.

Just my two cents.
 
I'm sorry, but I'm wondering....

what is the best camera in the world, how good is it compared to film, how is Red priced compared to it's competitors, how good is Red compared to Sony, is it that good, is film dead and stuff like that.

If anyone finds any threads about this please let me know, because I haven't seen this being discussed anywhere since '06.
 
From my understanding Epic will be around 40,000. Im seeing some people complaining about the price. I think it will probably cover some future upgrades. A company called Aaton is supposedly working on 6K (Penelope 35mm camera that excepts digital mags). Even though Epic is a 5K camera, anyone think Jim is leaving room for a possible upgrade to 6K down the road?
 
I don't think so - at least not for a while...

Even EPIC is 5K only due to the Bayered CMOS sensor which "only" gives You (in RED HW) 78% of RGB resolution. That makes EPIC more 4K then 5K. I believe it is really designed as top-of-the-line 4K digital camera...

It's like when HDTVs came out. Many were not true HD (even today). Same for HD cameras - most CCD sensors are still 1440x1080 (not 1920x1080) - but are still called HD cameras...

I just think that the 5K is really confusing lot of people.

Maybe EPIC should be called TRUE-4K (with 5K acquisition) just like the "TRUE-HD" displays are...
 
I think an important aspect for this camera is the re-design. I like RED but for me it's trying to hard to be everything. With Epic I'll get a smaller design which is more compact and more concentrated on giving me what I want. I truly hope they consider all the "mistakes" they made with RED. As for the rez, yes that is very welcome as well :weight_lift:


Fredrik Callinggard
 
weirdcrew said:
I truly hope they consider all the "mistakes" they made with RED
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I am sure they did, just please make sure You are considering all the things they did RIGHT! Red One will stay forever in the history books as the cam that brought high-end digital cinematography to the independent filmmakers. I bet You there will be one on a permanent display at MOMO one day! :w00t:
 
Peter Majtan said:
I am sure they did...
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I think they're headed in the right direction, but they need to be just as open about Epic's development as they were about the RED ONE's... if not more. The benefit is that this time around, there are people with 8+ months of daily experience with the RED ONE in an infinite number of shooting situations. They are the people that RED needs to talk with about the Epic in order to make it the best camera possible... rather than the camera born in the minds of a few.

The next year or so before the camera ships should be very exciting. It's like we get to go back and redo the RED ONE with more experience and a higher technological and budgetary ceiling. I can't wait.
 
Alexander Nikishin said:
The DR #'s should be on the rise with Epic as well I'd imagine.

That would be the single most important feature for me in regards to Epic.

Please give us in up wards of 13-14 stops, I'd repay the favor with a testicle or two.
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I believe you don't have enough testicles to repay an increase from 11 to 14 stops... Imagine a 11 stop sensor as a 11 story building, a 14 stops sensor will not equate to a 14 story building, but a 88 story building. You do see the complexity and costs going from an 11 to a 88 story building, achieving one stop increments in todays high end sensors is huge. 3 stops is like discovering a new continent back in the old days, it did happen but took a long time and quite some effort.

Craig Ryan said:
So in theory would Epic need to be 14 bit to get 14 stops? I don't mean to turn this in the direction of DR discussion, its just that what I've come to understand is that DR is limited to the bits...right?

Also, when do "bits" come into play anyways?
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If a sensor have 14 bits of useful information the AD should be way more than 14 bits. On high end stills sensors DALSA claims >11 bits of useful info and Camera makers stick a 16 bit AD to that sensor and claims it was beneficial over a 14 bit one. You need more bits than 1 to describe the darkest useful stop, if not it is like a monochrome 1 value stop. Dithering and noise together makes it possible to describe some texture with one value - think about FM rasters in printing. But if RED sticks a 14 bit AD in EPIC do not expect 14 stops of useful DR. Even with a 16 bit one its dodgy as the 16 bit ones are not really putting through 16 bits of useful info when in a package suitable for a RED camera.

The "bits" come in to play when you are to describe your analogue measurements of photons into digital values, i.e. in the A/D device. A/D device resolution and sensor dynamic range are to independent values, a wrongly designed A/D can ruin the signal from a good sensor, but a perfect A/D will not increase the dynamic range from any sensor. It is all in the sensor and the A/D needs to oversample enough to avoid being a limiting factor.

As to if 1K is worth 24k$ - I would say so. When going from 28MPx to 31MPx on a DALSA equipped stills digiback you pay 129.000NOK for the 28MPx one and 239.000NOK for the 31MPx one, however this is not quite fair as the 31MPx is slightly bigger physically as well (10%linear), but the difference is only a small increment in file size and angle of view, for a huge premium. 100k NOK is slightly less than 20K USD. And most stills professionals choose the 31MPx one over the 28MPx one.

MHO.
 
RicanJoe said:
( CONTINUED) than the RED ONE? I'm guessing that EpIc will feature out of this world features to compensate. Things that the RED ONE could not provide due to hardware limitations. What do you guys think, what is EPIC hiding behind its hefty $40,000 price tag?
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May I humble to ask you that do yu have any idea of the Advance DSP costs ?

EPIC is 5K , 100MB Datarate in REDcode , 120 FPS , Uncompressed RAW DPX or TiFFs ??? W
Will it worth to cost more than RED one which is just a 28 / 36 MB/s REDCODE based in 4K with " Not smooth " or kind of Storbings only in the frame rate of 24/25/30 recorded in RED DRIVE for a higher REDCODE Datarate and Frame Rate.

Cheers,
STEW.
Founder
REDHKSC
 
is it true that we will have 200+ FPS on 2K ?
 
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