Some evaluation of the Red

[D Namir]

I have been following this forum for sometime and had some chats with camera rentals in some places around the globe.
I am sure Red deliver a great image.
However, I see its low price as a problem. The big rental houses are avoiding, for now, from having these cameras. The way they see it is that there is no money for them in this camera. As one of them told me, now the Red is being rented in England for £600 a day but in a short while it will be £50 a day.
So as it looks now we are going to see a flood of Red cameras in private and half-commercial-rental hands while most of the big players will avoid holding it.
This will result in a few directions. 1) The big rentals houses will eventually get Red or a similar camera.
2) There will be a secondary rental market. Big rentals will have Dalsa, D-21 and alike and the secondary market will rent the Red and alike.
The movies being made will affect the rental market.
If good theatrical, or TV movies, will be made with the Red (and there is no reason why not) then Red and alike it will be.
However, judging by the flood of Red cameras getting into everyone hands and possible of a £60 rent a day, it looks that the Red will be mostly used to a very low budget movies and the few good movies that will be made with them will not be noticed.
That is why I think Red is a mistake of flooding the industry with $30K camera, as I wrote at the beginning I am sure the image will be fine and acceptable its their price which will be the problem.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

dude, you can rent a firestore for an hvx for 60 quid a day. So whoever's feeding that info down the pipe is either ill-informed or running on fear. So what if the camera rents for a few hundred quid less than it initially did? It's inexpensive to buy, so what's the problem?
Most of the major films shooting will be shooting on whatever they want to. Red is a tool. For indi and lower budget filmmakers it's an essential tool. And it's going to be the dominant tool in that market, and that's the important thing to many of us. It's giving us an opportunity we would not have otherwise had......but the question is, who cares if it's the primary or the secondary market? Most of the people who've bought the camera are producers or shooters, and can budget this into their productions....I'm missing your real point here. So what if the big rental houses don't buy the camera? (which doesn't seem to be the case in North America at least, where Sim has 50 of them) You'll have to rent from an owner, which is great for the independant guy making a living off of it, if they know their camera well and support it. But I'm speculating as to what you're driving at, so I guess I'm still missing your point.
IMHO, there's no way anyone is renting their camera out for 100 pounds a day, so that's just ridiculous speculation.

 

[Jason Ing]

I have been following this forum for sometime and had some chats with camera rentals in some places around the globe.

However, judging by the flood of Red cameras getting into everyone hands and possible of a £60 rent a day, it looks that the Red will be mostly used to a very low budget movies and the few good movies that will be made with them will not be noticed.

How long is "sometime"? Because I guess you haven't heard that it's already being used and will be used for big budget movies.

And in your reasoning, did you consider that an "artist" (insert any name here, including A list DPs and Directors) will use whatever tool they want irregardless of how expensive or inexpensive it is?

 

[Craig Meadows]

Which rental houses did you speak with specifically? I find $50/day a ridiculous assumption. Demand often drives prices not the actual cost of the camera.

 

[Ed Watkins]

However, judging by the flood of Red cameras getting into everyone hands and possible of a £60 rent a day, it looks that the Red will be mostly used to a very low budget movies and the few good movies that will be made with them will not be noticed.

You have got to be sh*tting me?

You honestly believe that the RED will go for 60quid a day?

For god's sake, there are probably way more than 10,000 HVX200's out there and they rent for $300 a day and cost about $6,500 to buy.

I wish people would stop fear mongering about the RED's and just get on with making films with them.

 

[laguun]

I have been following this forum for sometime and had some chats with camera rentals in some places around the globe.
I am sure Red deliver a great image.
However, I see its low price as a problem.

producers as me might disagree.

The big rental houses are avoiding, for now, from having these cameras. The way they see it is that there is no money for them in this camera. As one of them told me, now the Red is being rented in England for £600 a day but in a short while it will be £50 a day.

Excellent news.
I think it will rather be £75-85 a day.
The longer the few (in germany its 6) rental houses allows us smaller multimillion rental houses to earn back our brandnew angenieux lenses, sony class 1 crts etc, the happier you will see me.

So as it looks now we are going to see a flood of Red cameras in private and half-commercial-rental hands while most of the big players will avoid holding it.

I only had big-player customers renting out as reds clients here so far.

This will result in a few directions. 1) The big rentals houses will eventually get Red or a similar camera.
2) There will be a secondary rental market. Big rentals will have Dalsa, D-21 and alike and the secondary market will rent the Red and alike.

I suppose there are more red cameras ordered from berlin than dalsa and arri were able to sell within the last 5 years, together, worldwide.

However, judging by the flood of Red cameras getting into everyone hands and possible of a £60 rent a day, it looks that the Red will be mostly used to a very low budget movies and the few good movies that will be made with them will not be noticed.

I suppose you didnt notice that "jumper" (2nd unit red) was #1 in the office, el "che" by steven soderbergh has been nominated in cannes (pure red) and we have over 30 upcoming fullfeatures on red?

That is why I think Red is a mistake of flooding the industry with $30K camera, as I wrote at the beginning I am sure the image will be fine and acceptable its their price which will be the problem.

The camera is 17.500. Not 30.000.
Better or equal to film quality digital cameras will be below 10.000 soon, no matter if red or nikon.

 

[D Namir]

Which rental houses did you speak with specifically? I find $50/day a ridiculous assumption. Demand often drives prices not the actual cost of the camera.

Can't give you the name but it is a respectable one which has all the major Arri film cameras and the D-21, Dalsa, Sony you name it. They are not saying Red doesn't deliver they are saying there are two many of it.
Does anyone know if Clairmont and Otto picked up theirs and the rental I am quoting is none of these.

 

[M.Halsell]

Seems like another fine example of the propaganda machinery at work. The constant rhetoric that insinuates that RED products do not have a rightful place in this creative space. (sigh)

 

[Noah Kadner]

Ha ha ha- this is pure comedy. Ya think just *maybe* they're spreading the bs far and wide to protect their pricey investment- ain't going to happen though. Just remember to put down that pipe when Dominos comes a-knocking. Dude's gotta eat. :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:

Noah

 

[D Namir]

producers as me might disagree.


Excellent news.
I think it will rather be £75-85 a day.
The longer the few (in germany its 6) rental houses allows us smaller multimillion rental houses to earn back our brandnew angenieux lenses, sony class 1 crts etc, the happier you will see me.

I think that's the way you want to see it so that is how you put it.

I suppose you didnt notice that "jumper" (2nd unit red) was #1 in the office, el "che" by steven soderbergh has been nominated in cannes (pure red) and we have over 30 upcoming fullfeatures on red?

I didn't say Red doesn't deliver. My point is that if you give some people the same wine with different price tags the higher price tag will be more tasty
than the low price. And this will be the same wine.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against Red.

The camera is 17.500. Not 30.000.
Better or equal to film quality digital cameras will be below 10.000 soon, no matter if red or nikon.

It is $30K with all the accessories and you know that. It is even more with lenses. Lenses by the way are the keys to a successful rental.

 

[D Namir]

Ha ha ha- this is pure comedy. Ya think just *maybe* they're spreading the bs far and wide to protect their pricey investment- ain't going to happen though. Just remember to put down that pipe when Dominos comes a-knocking. Dude's gotta eat. :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:

Noah

These are professional and business people I wouldn't make light of their opinion. They are in the business for many years. It could be that they scared and wrong but it also could be that you are wrong.
I am sure they are considering their heavy investments deeply.

 

[Noah Kadner]

Oh please- I'll make light of whomever I want to- thank you very much. These must be professional people who are scared of losing money and to be honest- they should be very afraid. And if these people are soooo important why are you here representing their opinions of RED anonymously rather than owning up to their high and mighty wisdom in person?

I just love how there are some armchair quarterbacks out there who have no idea what they're talking about predicting doom and gloom because they don't "get" RED. You sound like this broken luddite record that started with 24p, continued with high definition and will probably sound until the death of innovation in cinema technology. Booring... Meanwhile, other people are using RED and other new gear every day and making a living with it. So there.

Noah

 

[D Namir]

Um sorry but I'll make light of whomever I want to- thank you very much.
Noah

You can do whatever you like as long as you aren't offending and harming others.
Your way of responding prove some of my points... but we live and see.
As I wrote before I am not against the Red I am just trying to evaluate it.

 

[Noah Kadner]

Just speaking the plain truth brother- as I see it anyway. Nobody ever got harmed by that. :gun:

Noah

 

[laguun]

I think that's the way you want to see it so that is how you put it.

I usually decide.

I didn't say Red doesn't deliver. My point is that if you give some people the same wine with different price tags the higher price tag will be more tasty
than the low price. And this will be the same wine.

Its up to anyone to choose his lifestyle. I prefer intelligence and logic. And champagne. And inexpensive secret-tip wine.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against Red.

I think green is silly.

It is $30K with all the accessories and you know that. It is even more with lenses.

Not if you own several cameras as any standard rental business. The camera is 17.500$. If you dont own standard power (v-mount), standard monitoring (hdmi/hd-sdi), standard support (arri/oconnor, 15/19mm), standard mics etc you should buy some stuff. but i would recommend to spend more than just 12.500 on that, if you can afford it.

Lenses by the way are the keys to a successful rental.

I see. It sems that i missed that only "key" besides service, security, prices, monitoring, support, grip, light, audio, consulting, recording, vtr/ddr, matteboxes etc.

BTW: Do you refer to red zoom lenses or to angenieux?

 

[D Namir]

Just speaking the plain truth brother- as I see it anyway. Nobody ever got harmed by that. :gun:

Noah

Now I can hear you.

 

[D Namir]

I usually decide.



BTW: Do you refer to red zoom lenses or to angenieux?

I refer to my Angenieux Optimo x4.7 17-80, Cooke 25-250 MK3, Century 2000 17-35, Set of Cooke S4, Set of Leica from 15mm up to 135mm, Canon slant lenses, Set of 16mm T1.3 hi speed, canon 200mm T1.8 Canon 300 T2.8 and some others.

 

[Erasmus]

Don't fall for GDV's bovine excrement

He's a chronic Red Nay Sayer. He's just having you all on to amuse himself.

Deep down inside he has RED ENVY

Notice he's all posts and no Red#

 

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I think GDV has a rental house with all those lenses!!! This is all for the hype!

 

[Brandon Fraley]

your criticism is that it's inexpensive???

uh huh... ok...