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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Space between Scarlet and RED ONE

Peter Majtan

Peter Majtan

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First of all - I don't want to start yet another thread where people can fight and insult each other. So please if You choose to post in this thread be polite and courteous and most importantly - be to the point...

I think Scarlet is perfect for what it is. The problem is that there are many who needs something between Scarlet and RED ONE. Do not try to tell RED how "wrong" they are with some Scarlet's features (etc), because they are not. Scarlet is exactly what it is and there is a huge market for such a camera. It addresses (and in many ways exceeds) the needs of film students, indies on a tight budgets and of course "soccer dads" :) amongst many others...

RED ONE is designed for "PRO" filmmaking (please don't get started on attacking what "PRO" actually means - we all know what I am trying to say) and is out of reach for many advanced indies and people with limited budgets.

There is a void between Scarlet and RED ONE.

What we are looking for is something like this (in order of priority):

1) full 35mm sensor that will allow the use of "photo" glass without any adaptors

Most "advanced" indie filmmakers have a good quality DSLR with some glass in their repertoire. Being able to use it with the camera is I believe the most important issue. It saves huge amount of money by not having to buy dedicated film glass and it saves space in our bags by carrying the same lenses for both photo and video...


2) consequently - an interchangeable lens mount (Canon, Nikon, etc...)

This to be chosen at the time of order (no predetermined mount included).
Of course the option of getting the RED ONE's/EPIC's PL mount - for those who want to invest in RED glass (even if at later point)


3) variable frame rates (with time-laps option) lets say 1~120

This is what really separates video from film (aside from DR). Being able to capture motion at variable speeds is very important aspect of storytelling. I don't remember seeing a good film that will not use this technique...


4) compatible with most RED accessories

Especially being able to use same batteries, monitoring options and recording option as RED-ONE/EPIC, so we can later upgrade to "higher" models...

What kept me loyal to Canon all these years (besides of the brilliant L glass that I have few) was the ability to use the same lenses and accessories for both still and video, and consequently having only to buy new camera bodies to step up. If RED wants to create the same loyal following - this is a must.


5) priced between $ 5~10K USD (with lens mount and basic accessories - couple of batteries, charger, LCD - no lens)

This is how much "this category" spends on average for new camera to fulfill their current needs.


Everything else is just fine given RED's logic (of course is going to be RED-CODE-RAW, well build, etc...)

Some may argue why are we talking about new camera when Scarlet and EPIC are not even released yet...

Well - development of both Scarlet and EPIC started before RED ONE was released at NAB-2007. I will be surprised if RED has not already considered this void and started some sort of research...

If You do post in this thread - please be realistic and to the point. Share Your current needs and problems - not Your dreams. Not that I don't believe in the power of dreams, but there are plenty of other threads for that...

And (once more) please be cool...
 
I look at Scarlett as being as much "PRO" as RED One, just configured in a different way for different uses. I know I'd get a better image from Scarlett than One if I was filming on the run in a war zone or undercover or hanging off a cliff because it'd actually be usable! Equally I'd get better shots of a gazelle 1/4 mile away with a One 'cos I could put a great big lens on it.
There's no comparison, they'll make a great team!
Steve
 
WOW - WOW

Please guys - read the post properly before you submit a reply.

I am not attacking Scarlet in any way!
And I specifically don't want to start discussion about what "PRO" means...
I have seen stuff shot on $700 HV20 that look much PRO then some stuff shot on 35mm ARRI!!!

This thread is not about Scarlet or RED ONE - but rather the void between the two...

Once again I love Scarlet for what it is and I am sure buying several units for our company as soon as it is out - especially for heli, car-mounted and underwater shoots... Also to train new and aspiring DOPs and as well for rentals to indies in our region...

Please read the main post carefully...
 
There is a gap in the prices and there is a gap in the specifications, but that does not automatically make it a profitable gap to try and fill. The camera you're describing with a Birger mount would suit me perfectly, but we'll have to wait and see if it fits the business side of the equation.

Meanwhile it'll be Scarlet for me for sure, as long as that lens goes wide enough - somebody could put me out of my misery and just say "don't worry".....please?! ;)
 
Peter Majtan said:
If You do post in this thread - please be realistic and to the point.
Click to expand...

Your thread describes basically what tons of people asked for in RED for the two years before it was released. I was along for the whole ride.

They built RED.

I think RED is their interchangeable 35mm DOF offer until someone else builds something better, cheaper. I don't fault you for asking for it, I sure did.

The "gap" is simply in your mind though. If they had a $3k and a $10K camera someone would start a "I want a $6k camera" thread and ask for reasoned reponses.

$3k, $20k and $40k are the gaps RED has chosen to fill. Probably because a zillion other companies already play in the $3k to $10K range and none of those products beats the specs on Scarlet.
 
ColinSmith said:
There is a gap in the prices and there is a gap in the specifications, but that does not automatically make it a profitable gap to try and fill. The camera you're describing with a Birger mount would suit me perfectly, but we'll have to wait and see if it fits the business side of the equation.

Meanwhile it'll be Scarlet for me for sure, as long as that lens goes wide enough - somebody could put me out of my misery and just say "don't worry".....please?! ;)
Click to expand...

You can be sure that by the time Scarlet is out there will be wide-angle and tele-photo adapters to hook on the front of scarlet (in a way what WD-H43 and TL-H43 does for HV20). Don't worry...
 
joelnet said:
Your thread describes basically what tons of people asked for in RED for the two years before it was released. I was along for the whole ride.

They built RED.

I think RED is their interchangeable 35mm DOF offer until someone else builds something better, cheaper. I don't fault you for asking for it, I sure did.

The "gap" is simply in your mind though. If they had a $3k and a $10K camera someone would start a "I want a $6k camera" thread and ask for reasoned reponses.
Click to expand...

I tend to disagree here. Look at the number of filmmakers as the "application" goes up:

(This is not to scale - just to make the point):

X - filmmakers who shoot "hollywood" style budgets (EPIC)
XX - filmakers who shoot features, but not "hollywood" style (EPIC/RED ONE)
XXXX - filmmakers who shoot "PRO" on reasonable budget (RED ONE)
XXXXXXX - filmakers who shoot "PRO" on limited budget (RED ONE/ ???)
XXXXXXXXXXX - "semi-pro" filmmakers (???)
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX - targeted Scarlet audience

The "X" are not digits, just to make point of scale - which is:

The number of people who will buy EPIC is going to be very limited (my guess in hundreds or lower thousands)
Number of RED ONE's are going to be exponentially large (thousands and maybe lower tens-of-thousands) and so on for ??? with Scarlet potentially selling hundreds-of-thousands units...

So the "gap" between $3K and $25K (RED ONE with minimum acc.) is not just in my mind and is definitely huge - potentially tens / lower hundreds-of-thousands units.

joelnet said:
$3k, $20k and $40k are the gaps RED has chosen to fill. Probably because a zillion other companies already play in the $3k to $10K range and none of those products beats the specs on Scarlet.
Click to expand...

They do beat the specs when it comes to interchangeable lenses - which was (and still is) the main point of discussion when it comes to Scarlet...

25K for RED ONE is out of reach for many who wants 35mm sensor with interchangeable lenses. And the technology is definitely there. It could have the larger Mysterium X sensor (but Scarlet's 3K resolution), which will allow the use of same affordable technology from Scarlet. This could be done within the $5K~$10K range easily...

As a benefit the larger pixels of the 3K 35 mm sensor will give less noise and better latitude...

On another hand - RED could drop the cost of RED ONE after releasing EPIC, but that is not likely to happen.
 
Peter Majtan said:
You can be sure that by the time Scarlet is out there will be wide-angle and tele-photo adapters to hook on the front of scarlet (in a way what WD-H43 and TL-H43 does for HV20). Don't worry...
Click to expand...

But an adaptor that is 3k sharp for wide angle on a small 2/3" sensor...... those are a lot of difficult things to do in combination.....I'm still worried ;)
 
ColinSmith said:
But an adaptor that is 3k sharp for wide angle on a small 2/3" sensor...... those are a lot of difficult things to do in combination.....I'm still worried ;)
Click to expand...

Most of the photo-glass can handle way more then 3K. There are cameras out there with 21MPx+. It should be relatively easy (especially by the time Scarlet is out) for some of the more reputable brands to come out with something.

I will be surprised if RED themselves doesn't offer their own solution - the do have the resources, technology and motivation...
 
Remember the slr glass only has to resolve to a sensor that is almost 4x as large physically, that gives a much tougher MTF requirement for Scarlet optics...... that was always the reason given for the high cost of HD glass for the HDCAM cameras compared with stills lenses.....

As you say, I am confident that the RED team are thinking of all this stuff and am sure they know an almost infinite amount more than me, I'm just also aware that a WA angle adaptor on the front of a 8x zoom is not an easy starting point......
 
I can see where you are coming from price wise. The RED ONE is not a $17.5K camera (it is a $17.5K body), it is closer to $30K with a minimum configuration to start shooting. I also think Scarlet is right on for what it is, but what is not clear is what it will include for the $3K price - I think this will be closer to $4k to $4.5k when kitted out for production.

So for very big rounding numbers, the original post is really about RED offering a model that falls between the $5k and $30k price. A split in the middle would put you at $17k. Makes for an interesting discussion. What would that camera have for functionality?

Michael
 
Thanks for the link, that gathers a lot of useful comparative information in one place. I didn't see direct reference to the resolving power related to the different formats, but the discussion here goes into it in a lot of detail on both (all?) sides of the debate
http://www.cinematography.net/[cml-hdtv] Cine lenses on 23 HD CCD cameras.htm

The calculator for the diffraction limited appature on your linked page did give some interesting numbers though...... another challenge for Scarlet's optics?
 
MichaelP said:
I can see where you are coming from price wise. The RED ONE is not a $17.5K camera (it is a $17.5K body), it is closer to $30K with a minimum configuration to start shooting. I also think Scarlet is right on for what it is, but what is not clear is what it will include for the $3K price - I think this will be closer to $4k to $4.5k when kitted out for production.

So for very big rounding numbers, the original post is really about RED offering a model that falls between the $5k and $30k price. A split in the middle would put you at $17k. Makes for an interesting discussion. What would that camera have for functionality?

Michael
Click to expand...

It doesn't have to be in the middle. As Joelnet pointed out - there is "zillion" companies competing in the segment bellow $10K. But I am glad you understand my point in general.

As per the functionality - it could have all the internal electronics of Scarlet (working at 3K) with larger full sized 35 mm sensor (derivated from the new Mysterium X, but with larger pixels) and interchangeable lens mount. That could fit under $10K even with a decent external LCD (could be the same from scarlet - just external) and basic battery and storage options.

This would be an absolute killer for everyone on tight budgets...
 
PS: With the above configs RED could reuse much of the stuff from Scarlet and the mounts from RED ONE. The only new thing they would have to develop is 3K 35mm Mysterium X. This should be quite easy. This new camera could be realistically out (or at east announced) at NAB 2009.
 
You're absolutely right Peter.

Who can afford a $10,000 camera maybe now has an EX1 and a Letus. Ok, maybe they dream about having a RED One, but they look at their current rig and it produces decent stuff.

Now let's look at people who only have $3,000 to spend. Hmmm let's say... ME.

When I started researching what to cam to buy (last year) the only one that fitted my budget was the FX7, it costed $2,500 on B&H, and the other option was Canon XH-A1 but it costed $1,000 more.

The FX7 is a good cam, it's just like the V1. Good but pretty bad on low light.

People who only have a $5,000 budget and dream of RED look to their current rig and see how much they're behind.

Some months ago I was thinking: Ok, the next step then is to get a nice DOF adapter and put some cheap 35mm lens. It'll give me some great results. That was before Scarlet was announced. Now I look to Scarlet a 2/3" cam that will record crystal clear images and huge amount of FPS. That's my next cam!

The Students, Budget Indies, "Prosumers" market is a much larger market than serious Indies that are in the final step before actually being able to rent or buy a RED One.

Now I still have some questions:

Would it be possible to have a S35-sized sensor on a 5k cam?

Wouldn't this future RED Mini have a S16-sized sensor?
The Bolex of the digital world (like already mentioned)?
 
Hi Impagliazzo,

The market You mention ("The Students, Budget Indies, "Prosumers" market is a much larger market than serious Indies that are in the final step before actually being able to rent or buy a RED One") is definitely the largest (by number of potential clients), but is well addressed by Scarlet. With few wide/tele adaptors Scarlet will do wonders, just as HV20 did for now...

To answer Your question "Would it be possible to have a S35-sized sensor on a 5k cam?":

I believe so. Certainly between 5~8K. Slap on few "must-haves" and we should have a package ready to shoot under 10K. I have explained above how this could be achieved with minimum engineering.

Also such a cam will not compete with Scarlet, neither with RED ONE - it will fit neatly between the two and complement the full range. Somehow I don't see Scarlet's user upgrading easily to RED ONE. Same way I don't see many people who have invested heavily into interchangeable glass to go for Scarlet, but here the RED-CODE-RAW combined with variable frame rate could be the deal-breaker... But I am sure that for "these" customers such a new RED cam will fit in nicely without any compromise...
 
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