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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red STAYED TRUE to their mission statement.

Scott Jenson

Scott Jenson

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Red Epic does NOT render Red One obsolete.

Jim has stated numerous times that there IS a limit on how much can be offered at a certain price point. He cannot offer one camera and keep everyone happy. Jim brilliantly recognized a large customer-pool with deep pockets, and he will offer them Red Epic. It is imperative for Red to satisfy that group in order to remain respected in this industry. If he were to force Epic's specs into Red One, the price would surely rise and independent filmmakers would suffer.

Scarlet is another example of Jim recognizing a customer pool. Three years ago, a DVX was one of the best options for this customer pool. Now, the DVX is obsolete (nearly) . This will not happen with Scarlet. Scarlet's shelf life will outlast every digital camera that has ever hit this market.

Remember, 4k (or 3.2k if you insist) is insanely huge. Most filmmakers will not need higher than 4k for a long time. High budget productions will always need the best. Low/no budget productions will always need the cheapest. Documentary/run n gun need light weight, and automatic. Red One cannot be the only offering from Red, and it is far from obsolete. The ability to credit the purchase of Red One toward Red Epic makes it certain that...

Red STAYED TRUE to their mission statement.
 
I agree 100%. Epic for the big wigs, red one for the big to low budget filmmakers, and scarlet for the broke. lol. ;)
 
Not surprisingly, I agree with you... :-)

Jim
 
Bungess said:
Red Epic does NOT render Red One obsolete.

Jim has stated numerous times that there IS a limit on how much can be offered at a certain price point. He cannot offer one camera and keep everyone happy. Jim brilliantly recognized a large customer-pool with deep pockets, and he will offer them Red Epic. It is imperative for Red to satisfy that group in order to remain respected in this industry. If he were to force Epic's specs into Red One, the price would surely rise and independent filmmakers would suffer.

Scarlet is another example of Jim recognizing a customer pool. Three years ago, a DVX was one of the best options for this customer pool. Now, the DVX is obsolete (nearly) . This will not happen with Scarlet. Scarlet's shelf life will outlast every digital camera that has ever hit this market.

Remember, 4k (or 3.2k if you insist) is insanely huge. Most filmmakers will not need higher than 4k for a long time. High budget productions will always need the best. Low/no budget productions will always need the cheapest. Documentary/run n gun need light weight, and automatic. Red One cannot be the only offering from Red, and it is far from obsolete.

Red STAYED TRUE to their mission statement.
Click to expand...


exactly. either ur in the market for a $40k+ camera or ur not. I'm not, but luckily the RED ONE blows everything else away and is only getting better. if you ARE, then great, the best just got better :)

no worries


BTW: it was cool briefly saying hi to you today, Jim. Thanks again for allowing me and everyone else access to such a brilliant filmmaking tool! can't wait to get that confirmation email! :)
 
I watched a 4k presentation in the back of the RED tent at NAB abut 5 hours ago.
The pictures were that sharp i almost got dizzy watching it. It was truly a IMAX experience in clarity and depth.

Me personally, I cant see the point in going to the 5k EPIC and I'm in the fortunate position of being albe to by heaps of them. I'm sure it's going to be a great unit, but.....
RED Lenses, Whooaaa, very very tastey indeed, at a tasty price too.
I just got priced at the ARRI tent a set of Master primes, Hold onto your undies, 300k!
A great lens at a great big price.

The talk around NAB is Glass! and the lack of it. The sooner RED gets there lenses up and running, the better we all will be.
Oooooooooooooh and the other RED news was that the Apples Color will link direct with the R3D files using the timeline from FCP. I cant wait for that to come on line.

Over all, RED have done it again!
 
oh and Scarlet, Well...it's as cute as the name suggests.

For fun, you'd have to buy a few. For rough and ready shots were you don't want to risk the RED ONE.
Not my cup of tea as a camera goes, but no doubt it will kill the DV market, kill it dead!

I can see it turning into a stunt camera on many shoots, Michael Bay would have to use at least a 100 of them per film.
The roller blade, parachute, skateboard Nutters will be mad not to get into these things.

Whens the order form coming online. 4 please.
 
danbrazda said:
Kiss ass as mush as you guys want but the bottom line, if you are big enough to accept it, is that RED is falling into the early stages of the same capitalistic crapola as Sony- meaning... strectch that dollar as far as you can. Rendering obsolescence obsolete? Hmmm.....
Click to expand...

Hmmm...
Jim is a billionaire....
I guess you could call him capitalistic by any known standard... :)

I never read that RED was not a business.

The fact that they release products towards other markets than the 17,5k (HPX-500, remember) market, is just very good. They have now three cams:

Scarlet (pricewise compareable to buying a DVX-100 new... Oh, no. You won't even get a DVX @ that price point. Nevermind...)

ONE (Pricewise compareable to a HPX-500)

EPIC (Pricewise compareable to a HPX 2100)

Now:
Take a deeeeeeeeep breath.

OK?

Look at the specs.

Cheers!
 
Exactly..THANK YOU for this thread. You don't have to be a drunk-off-the-Red-cool-aid fanboy to realize the brilliance of these announcements...The man founded Oakley folks, I think he might have somewhat of an idea of what he's doing. "The force is strong with this one".
 
It is the shift in focus that is so disappointing today. 2/3" on Scarlet and the top camera is not the Red One. I think that the implicit promise about Red One "rendering obsolesce obsolete" was that Red was going to keep Red One at the top of the digital cinema game for many years to come. Of course, most everyone expected an upgrade to 6k or similar in the coming years, but it was supposed to be just a sensor upgrade. It seems clear that Red has lost some confidence in the modularity, upgradability, and design of the Red One. Otherwise, there would be no need to design a better camera to fix the problems of Red One. Remember Red freely set the price to $17.5; many expected $35k. I took Red's promise as meaning that Red One buyers were going to be kept as the state of the art (at a minimum within the Red world if not the world at large). Red was free to set the price of Red One at whatever level they choose such that it would be feasible to create a camera path that would continue to be state of the art for many years to come. Instead, the first design is going to be supplanted as state of the art after only a little over one year of full release-- pretty disappointing!

I think that Jannard is shockingly fair and decent. . . and exceedingly patient. That is precisely why I think that he did not envision beating the Red One (at least so quickly) when he set out to design the camera that never becomes obsolete. I suppose he thinks that he failed in one aspect of Red One or another and cannot deliver his vision within the limitations of Red One. However, I bet that he did not plan it this way. I hope that everyone is clear that an old, obsolete computer may very well perform perfectly and do what it was sold to do 15 years later, but that fact does not change the fact that it is obsolete.
 
danbrazda said:
Kiss ass as mush as you guys want but the bottom line, if you are big enough to accept it, is that RED is falling into the early stages of the same capitalistic crapola as Sony- meaning... strectch that dollar as far as you can. Rendering obsolescence obsolete? Hmmm.....
Click to expand...

EPIC offers features beyond those offered by ONE, but doesn't obsolete it. At present there is no demand for 5K pictures. The RED One has been a good and usable thus far, and that's not going to change simply because another product is available with a higher spec.

Do people bitch and moan every time Ford releases car with a bigger engine than their current model? Their car is still as useful as it was before, the existence of a newer/better model doesn't change that.

RED hasn't suggested they are going to discontinue development or support for the RED One.

Sony legitimately produces a variety of cameras at different price points, with different feature for different segments of the market. Would you prefer that once a company releases a product they cease to develop any further products. All companies will release a single product, and stick with that.
 
See your point, sorta...

Have to disagree, though...

All digital equipment will always fall back. Higher bitrates and less compression and deeper bit depths will always come. That's the name of the game (if you've been into computers for a year or two).

one CAN upgrade the sensor (an analogue device) but ALL AD/DA digital signal chain hardware will evolve - @ a point beyond stupidity, but we're not there yet with images.

2 years from now you MAY be able to run 8k uncompressed 24 bit 4:4:4 from your laptop, or you may not, but untill then the ante or specs will be raised and it will be a good thing.

Does that make your current hardware obsolete?

NOT in my world!
Please have a look at the alternatives...

Gunleik
 
At its price point, RED ONE will not become obsolete. It has been stated on these boards by people from NAB that RED will offer a sensor upgrade at the time that Epic is released; all Epic is, is more bells and whistles along with the higher price tag. RED ONE is still at the top of the game of its price point.
 
I keep reading "the Red One had design problems they couldn't fix, so they came up with the Epic..."

Really?! What are people basing this assumption on.

I was there at NAB today and I readily admit that I thought the Epic was the Red One's replacement and that thought was disheartening (and I mean the actual thought, there's nothing disheartening about the camera).

I have since been told otherwise which is great. But I keep reading "Red one is obsolete." Why? Stop it. I love my Red and you're hurting its feelings.
 
danbrazda said:
Kiss ass as mush as you guys want but the bottom line, if you are big enough to accept it, is that RED is falling into the early stages of the same capitalistic crapola as Sony- meaning... strectch that dollar as far as you can. Rendering obsolescence obsolete? Hmmm.....
Click to expand...
As soon as Sony or Avid or Panasonic let you purchase gear, use it for a year or two then return it and get a credit for the full purchase price to put towards an upgrade lemme know.:tongue:


Sycophant said:
Sony legitimately produces a variety of cameras at different price points, with different feature for different segments of the market.
Click to expand...
Not to long ago the "dinosaurs" of the industry were getting blasted for having a tiered product line. I can understand some people feeling the need to vent when they've been sold on the idea of a single, modular, upgradable camera system and then less than a year after the camera starts shipping an improved, "higher end" model is announced.

I don't blame Red for setting lofty goals and I don't blame them for succumbing, at least in part, to the reality of the industry. They might have had to adjust course a few times, but their final destination (to make a camera(s) that Jim Jannard would want to call his own) hasn't changed, IMO.


-A
 
pablano said:
I keep reading "the Red One had design problems they couldn't fix, so they came up with the Epic..."

Really?! What are people basing this assumption on.

I was there at NAB today and I readily admit that I thought the Epic was the Red One's replacement and that thought was disheartening (and I mean the actual thought, there's nothing disheartening about the camera).

I have since been told otherwise which is great. But I keep reading "Red one is obsolete." Why? Stop it. I love my Red and you're hurting its feelings.
Click to expand...

As far as I can see, they were 1) being too small to fit full sized BNC and XLR ports, and 2) being too small and too cheap to have the processing power required to be able to downscale 4K (or 5K) to 1080p on the fly for monitoring.

I still think that the RED ONE is an awesome camera and I'd love to own one if I had the cash. It looks a lot less bulky than the EPIC, and 4K is still anything beyond anything I've ever shot (apart from still photography).

Still, I'm stoked that I'll be able to afford a Scarlet - I was hoping for 2K for around $6, 000, but it looks as if it's going to be far better than that!
 
Stephen Gentle said:
As far as I can see, they were 1) being too small to fit full sized BNC and XLR ports, and 2) being too small and too cheap to have the processing power required to be able to downscale 4K (or 5K) to 1080p on the fly for monitoring.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but until the Red team comes out and says "the Red One has limitations we didn't count on, hence the Epic." Isn't everyone just assuming? And incorrectly at that, from what I gather from Jim's posts today.

By the way, I just bought a Lectrosonics Receiver that has Mini-XLR outs, so I can go mini to mini. Just saying...
 
Red-one

Red-one

As far as I can see, they were 1) being too small to fit full sized BNC and XLR ports, and 2) being too small and too cheap to have the processing power required to be able to downscale 4K to 1080p on the fly for monitoring.
Click to expand...

Well, fact is we made a conscious (maybe wrong) decision to use those smaller footprint connectors; lets have that monitoring discussion in a few months time..

btw - the RED community challenge is still there - has anyone found a battery powered light weight 1080p native resolution field monitor to connect a 1920 x 1080p HD-SDI monitor signal up to ?
 
Yeah, I saw a neat little 15" 1080p field-worthy monitor at the show. I forget who made it... but it was quite nifty.

I don't care about 1080 either way, but one definitely exists. What do I win? :wink:
 
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