Is this camera a joke?

[Jeff Coatney]

Hi,

If that is so then any financial advantage of using a cheaper camera just evaporated! Extra bodies seem to cost $800 (4%) per day.

Stephen

The RED is not the cheaper camera, its the better camera. Productions choose RED because when you balance image quality and the net savings realized through the entire workflow, you can easily afford the spare body and save money overall.

 

[laguun]

Hi,

If that is so then any financial advantage of using a cheaper camera just evaporated! Extra bodies seem to cost $800 (4%) per day.

Stephen

I would always recomend to ask for backup - with *any* camera.

With any camera, we offer our renters to back up at +25% for the body. body is at 349euro (excl. VAT) here. The cameras here are booked quite a bit, so its wise to reserve early.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

This DIT person everyone keeps bringing up. I'm working with the genisis right now. I know its differnt from the RED but there is no DIT. If we all want Red to be accepted and used on big shoots Forget a DIT its a luxury that production will not get passed.

When it comes to getting the most out of your HD images, a DIT is actually a very important role. Can you do without? Sure, but you can cut corners anywhere in a production chain, but when the budget allows a good DIT will bring a lot to the table in terms of image quality.

I see a RED equivilent as someone who understands RAW workflow, knows how to present images on set to directors, producers, etc who want to know what the image could be tweaked to look like, and has a thorough understanding of the camera menus, settings, formatting, and data management. To me, this is an important person to have on a RED shoot. But again, you can do without. Just as long as your DP, camera op and AC know about all of those things and can manage them amongst their other responsibilities.

In my opinion, you assemble a crew that is capable of shooting with whatever format it is and they can do it competently and know how to react when things go wrong. Everyone's definition of what that crew is may be different. But over time as more RED shoots happen and people formulate an assessment of what is needed to really get the jobs done flawlessly, we'll see some standard operating procedures develop I would think.

 

[Stephen Williams]

The RED is not the cheaper camera, its the better camera. Productions choose RED because when you balance image quality and the net savings realized through the entire workflow, you can easily afford the spare body and save money overall.

Hi Jeff,

I have found budgets have got smaller of the last 10 years, producers are looking to cut costs, and often do not care about quality.

Stephen

 

[Mark Allen]

You know... I can hear your pain on a shoot where there is technical problems. Many years ago I had a betaSP camera go down during a shoot and we had no back up and it was such a nightmare. A proven camera... down.

In defense of the RED - I've used mine on some of the silliest shoots you could imagine... the AC learning the camera the night before for 3 hours, a PA whose first day on a set ever was with us and was our "data loader" (and sound operator for playback). Not one problem, not even a codec error (which I have seen before and I always tell people who rent my camera to expect they'll see three of them even though I've never seen one on my own camera actually.) Maybe lucky. I've been lucky a couple times with it though then.

I do think the RED has a higher probability of going down than a 35mm camera. It's newer, it's more technical. It has a lower probability of the film being accidentally exposed.

Keep in mind one option instead of having a back-up camera is to have a company on stand-by for a rental. Or maybe a stand-by on-call DIT or both. That way your might pay more if you need them, but if you don't need them, you're out a stipend or nothing at all.

(If you do need a camera on set, People in LA can rent my camera as a back-up for cheap, but only on a weekly plus basis. Especially if you're a RED owner, I make splendid deals.)

 

[Stephen Williams]

I would always recomend to ask for backup - with *any* camera.

Hi Laguun,

I have shot over 1000 days with Sony cameras and never had a camera go down on a shoot. That's also been my experience with film cameras.

Stephen

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Hi Jeff,

I have found budgets have got smaller of the last 10 years, producers are looking to cut costs, and often do not care about quality.

Stephen

Sad, but very true in a lot of situations.

 

[Ed Blythe]

Forget a DIT its a luxury that production will not get passed.

Lots of issues in this post, but this one's a Fail. If you can't see why, you can't shoot tapeless (and film also seems like a risk - unless you think you can do without a loader).

And that's cool, but don't bother me with it. Shoot tape. Best of luck.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Hi Jeff,

I have found budgets have got smaller of the last 10 years, producers are looking to cut costs, and often do not care about quality.

Stephen

I don't know who you work with, but if that's the way you feel about them, I would endeavor to do business with a better class of Producer than you're used to dealing with if I were you.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Lots of issues in this post, but this one's a Fail. If you can't see why, you can't shoot tapeless (and film also seems like a risk - unless you think you can do without a loader).

Hi,

In Switzerland where budgets are low it'd very rare to have a loader, 1st AC has to load as well or on Micro budgets without a camera assistant it's the DOP!

Stephen

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Jeff,

I think what Stephen means is that when push comes to shove, quality can sometimes take a hit because producers are working with smaller budgets and trying to make the numbers work which sometimes means giving up some quality. In other words, it's not that they don't care about quality (maybe there are exceptions) they just go with cheaper options to get it done with the budget they have

 

[Stephen Williams]

I don't know who you work with, but if that's the way you feel about them, I would endeavor to do business with a better class of Producer than you're used to dealing with if I were you.

Hi,

I am selective about who I work for, probably why Film accounts for more than 50% of my income, that was not true 5 years ago when 'I went with the flow'

Stephen

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Jeff,

I think what Stephen means is that when push comes to shove, quality can sometimes take a hit because producers are working with smaller budgets and trying to make the numbers work which sometimes means giving up some quality.

I agree and that's why I love this camera, Steve. We all have to fight that battle.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Hi,

I am selective about who I work for, probably why Film accounts for more than 50% of my income, that was not true 5 years ago when 'I went with the flow'

Stephen

That's obvious looking at your work, Stephen. It's excellent.

 

[Peter Karlsson]

Sorry to hear about your experience Patryk! I was worried as hell the first time I used my camera on set, but other than some lcd flickering everything worked just fine.

I wasn´t really prepared to do anything with the Red until the firmware is rock solid. But after some test I figured out what worked and what didn't. I get codecs errors when aiming upon a bright light source, overexposing the whole thing. So if I was supposed to shoot anything like that, I know I have to step down to build 13 or 14. So knowing the camera seems pretty important while the firmware is still going under constant changes.

I hope you give the camera another go once when the dust is settled...

 

[Tomas_Puig]

It's interesting when reading posts like this. I work mostly out of India now but when I was back in San Francisco starting out we used to use the HVX200 with the P+S tech adaptor and zeiss ss 35mm lenses on set. I remember when that first came out that a lot of productions had major problems with the card downloading and footage playback. It took people about 6-9 months to get very familiar with the camera and I was hired on jobs as a Data Tech more than I can count.

The point is any new tech system requires a computer geek on set to run it, camera tests, and other issues. At least we're not tweaking back focus and fighting with rotating glass elements.

Look the choice to use red vs. 35mm is a economical and post work flow decision.

I just shot a Video here on the Sony F950 (down to hdcam sr HQ [the extra information wasnt worth the trouble btw])and let me tell you I would have killed for proper depth of field. After we built the set we had to stick the 250 zoom on the camera just throw the backround out enough for the beauty shots on the model. The equivalent 135mm (in 35 terms) digiprime just wasn't cutting it. So we had to move the ENTIRE set decorations just to clear enough space to get the focal pull we wanted. We probably lost 45min because of that reset.

Look, every camera has pluses and minuses. This camera lets you get a 35mm depth and look, has a stable lensing array, and lets you start edit day one.

Trust me we have to turn around major effects driven videos from shoot to delivery in 2.5 weeks (India has brutal turn times for content) you'll be missing that 4 days you lost for dev, telecine, and offline to online conversion.

Well enough counter rant for now, but trust me all options have their drawbacks.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Shooting extensively every day for almost two weeks here. No problems on non-beta builds (that is except: playback issues with build 15).

Had the mentioned problems on beta 15.

My guess is that you ran beta 15 without someone knowing the cam.
I think one may/can do without a DIT, but still not on initial shoots with RED without havinbg done complete workflowtests in advance together with someone knowledgable. I still see the "I have a really fast PPC" thing pop'ing up on a lot of boards and will not rent my cam without being assured that the people who use it know what it is. When one do, it is a smooth experience. When one don't - it's a lot of balooney.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

It's sounds like and by looking at you're reel that you figured you could take this camera out for a spin. I could be wrong but that was it seems like. Well in theory yes, but in practice no. Simply because the camera has small bugs that we the RED owner community knows of but not the person that rents it. The code errors are probably you trying to record redcode 36 on a CF card, or you changing format in the middle of things. These things are not possible and some will never be. It's small things that's very easy to skip when skimming the manual and other things which we know is not enabled yet.
The camera is not difficult to learn, you'll do that in less than a day, but the small tricks that needed will take longer (a few days).
As the camera is still a beta built it's important to have someone who knows it's weaknesses with you.

The DIT is just a new word for a clapper/loader and is important. The skills are different so you need new people that acknowledge that.

When film crews really know how to work with this camera 100% it might be a person (DIT) that's not needed anymore. I personally believe it will be the term for a clapper/loader instead. At this very moment the film crews doesn't take the time needed to learn this camera. It took me a weekend testing every single configuration, to see what was possible, what could lead to a problem and what was working like a charm. I don't think there was anyone at Patryk shoot who had done that (I could be wrong). At this point the film crews will start blaming the camera, especially since it so new.

regards,

Fredrik

 

[Ace]

 

[brandon herman]

were they RED CF cards, or off the shelf?

sounds like dropped frames from the early days of slower NLEs.

only RED cards are certified.