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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Build 15 & 16 news...

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I see no reason not to implement advanced features if the technology allows it and there is a demand for it, and IF they don't interfere with ease and speed of shooting.

The problem with adding features is being able to control them. That's where the limitations of buttons step in.
Features and controls being buried in menus within menus within menus will complicate things instead of helping with camera operation.

As I said before, if you plan to add features I think it would be wise to add new external multifunctional controllers, such as touch screen for quick navigation or multiple knobs with function assignment ability.

If it's possible, make camera control "modes", where each user can choose how many, or which controls are shown/used.
They could be customized with another app, or even Redcine, by seeing the whole menu tree and arranging/deleting branches like nodes in compositing apps.
You create you own modes and transfer them into the camera.

Those setups could also be transferred onto other cameras, so each shooter could quickly customize any Red for his/hers own preference and feel.
Another example - those modes could also be customized for different types of shoot.

Okay - you wanted the camera to be modular. So go a step further and make GUI modular also.
Since your creation is mechanical and digital, try adding modularity into digital realm as well.

That way you can keep all types of shooters happy and creative, which I assume is your goal.
 
Omen, this customizing will create product support nightmare.
Maybe once the product is mature you could add extra user menus to be configured by users but the main flow and branches have to be rigid.
 
Andrew said:
Omen, this customizing will create product support nightmare.
Maybe once the product is mature you could add extra user menus to be configured by users but the main flow and branches have to be rigid.
Click to expand...

Why? Anyone that would create custom menus would know something about the camera and know that they were doing something mildly dangerous.

A simple "return to factory settings" as exists on almost every modern broadcast camera, cell phone, etc. would solve the support nightmare issue.

Being able to make custom presets, customizable user buttons and menu settings are a key component of every current broadcast, prosumer and even some consumer level camcorders - why not the RED?

It seems like a lot of people want to dumb down this camera when the whole key to the computer-centric design of the RED is all the cool things we should be able to do. Because of that I expect the RED to have a lot more of this capability than say a Varicam or F900 - not less.

User interface and camera control software stuff should be fairly simple programming for one of thousands of software engineers around the country to do and doesn't require the "mad-genius" Graeme Nattress type. If RED doesn't have one, they should take the cash flow from 3 or 4 camera sales and hire one now, and let Graeme work on the "magic" stuff.
 
I agree that resetting to the factory default will eliminate any confusion for support.

I just reacted to this statement:
“You create your own modes and transfer them into the camera”
 
Andrew said:
I just reacted to this statement:
“You create your own modes and transfer them into the camera”
Click to expand...


Andrew,
think of Modes as "visibility" of options.

They wouldn't change anything inside the camera. Just as you perceive the GUI.
Think of "Modes" as LUT's for GUI. :-)


Wiki:
"In computer science, a lookup table is a data structure, usually an array or associative array, used to replace a runtime computation with a simpler lookup operation. The speed gain can be significant, since retrieving a value from memory is often faster than undergoing an expensive computation."


Keys are often right in front of us...
 
omen said:
Andrew,
think of Modes as "visibility" of options.

They wouldn't change anything inside the camera. Just as you perceive the GUI.
Think of "Modes" as LUT's for GUI. :-)



Keys are often right in front of us...
Click to expand...

Aaaaa... this would be nice..............
 
Gibby said:
I think its time for everyone here to cease the “my way is right” rhetoric, realize that RED ONE users can come from multiple professional imaging backgrounds, and rather than waste energy protecting our little fiefdoms or turf, exchange creative ideas for using RED ONE.
Click to expand...


Somebody please make this a sticky or the first thing everyone has to read when logging in for the next week or two.

About half the orders for RED include the Nikon mount, are all those Nikon users "lesser" for using some of the best glass around?

Gibby.

I applaud your truthful and sensible approach. It is refreshing on this forum. Sometimes I feel like I need a shower after reading how messed up some of the rhetoric is around here.

RED = REVOLUTION

Let's not loose sight of that.

David
 
Gibby is a Sensei.
 
What about the skew in Build 15 and 16? Are there/will be any improvements? That would be great for VFX workers...
 
Hello Steve,
It's Stewart here in HKG with BWB 's Computer Cafe, and how was your 3D RED projects going ?

It's been a whilewe have not heard about your test since Sept., 2007!!!

Sorry Stewart is my Guest
BWB


Gibby said:
Me, GibCor, and an alliance company own a total of six RED cameras, with two more to be delivered shortly. We’ve been shooting with them for over six months now, in a wide variety of styles: cine-style, EFP style, and hybrid cine/EFP style. We’ve shot extensively with 35mm cine primes and zooms, some 35mm still lenses, and B4 2/3” HD EFP/ENG zooms. We’ve shot extensive aerials (helicopter and fixed wing), extensive underwater, with cranes, jibs, stabilization units, and a broad range of tripod and hand held terrestrial footage. Projects have included features, television programs, commercials, high-end business media, stock footage, and many more. As you might guess, our kit setups have ranged from bare bones mobile 1-person setups, to max-accessorized gigantic rigs.

So, what have we learned about RED ONE in all this? A few thoughts:

The camera essentially becomes what you accessorize it to become, whether that be cine style, EFP style, or hybrid cine/EFP style.

The camera can be effectively used in a large crew cine or EFP environment, or quite easily used by a single operator.

The biggest challenge for most RED ONE users is for them to develop broad enough skill sets, and open-minded attitudes, to effectively match what the camera itself is capable of being used for.

There are very few “right” ways or “wrong” ways to use the camera, though many biased or elitist individuals protecting their turf will try to claim there are.

Used correctly, the camera generates excellent images – which is the bottom line, and what we’re all after.

Users of the camera come from a broad range of backgrounds; film, television, video, still photography – thus attitudes, experience, biases, and prejudices will vary.

The camera’s technology is most closely related to a DSLR, moderately related to a TV/video camera, and only remotely related to a film camera.

An all-manual workflow has its limitations, thus the electronics incorporated in RED ONE are there to be used to modify the workflow when needed or wanted.

Imaging professionals do use the right tool for the job, and sometimes that tool involves some auto features. DSLR pros regularly use autofocus when a job calls for it. TV/video pros regularly use some auto features when necessary (iris, etc.). They are no less “pros” than all manual film professionals.

Focusing 4k with RED ONE can be done effectively by traditional methods, using measuring tapes, focus pullers, scales, etc, or alternately by sight focusing using the EVF, LCD, 2x image magnification, and the other focus tools. Real “pros” match their focusing methods to the demands of the task at hand. 1:1 would be nice, but the camera can be focused just fine with the tools it presently has.

In competent hands, the exposure can be set accurately with the camera using traditional methods (hand meter, etc.) or by using the camera’s electronics (zebra, etc.). If someone isn’t competent, they can blow exposure on the camera, but there really isn’t any “rocket science” involved with exposing RED RAW efficiently. Practice makes perfect.

RAW is different than shooting RGB. DSLR pros coming to RED have a jump on that. TV/video pros used to shooting RGB have a moderate learning curve in approaching RED ONE. Film types, who haven’t traditionally used (or trusted) electronics on a camera, will tend to stay with the safe (read “manual) procedures. They’ll be real familiar with cine lens use on RED ONE, but generally unfamiliar and/or untrusting of the electronic features.

-------------------------------------------

END NOTES:

There are very few right ways or wrong ways to use RED ONE. If you’re getting well exposed and well focused images from the camera you’re using it the “right” way, if not, you’re using it the “wrong” way. Beyond the large crew cine-style productions GibCor has done or been a part of, I have personally shot petabytes of RED ONE footage over a six month period all by myself, with absolutely no assistant, sight focusing the camera by myself using the EVF or LCD, plus RED’s existing focusing tools, and quickly exposing the images using zebra or with more time also using the histogram. I respect both the traditional manual workflow (and use it at times), and also respect the more progressive “use the camera’s electronics, small crew or single operator” workflow. GibCor matches the best and most effective lenses, accessories, and workflow procedures to each project, and keeps a continually open mind for modifications of our workflows and equipment.

I think its time for everyone here to cease the “my way is right” rhetoric, realize that RED ONE users can come from multiple professional imaging backgrounds, and rather than waste energy protecting our little fiefdoms or turf, exchange creative ideas for using RED ONE. GibCor and our associates are not strictly cine-style, EFP style, or hybrid cine/EFP style in our approach – we’re all those. We pick the most appropriate style and equipment for our RED ONE cameras for each individual project.
Click to expand...
 
Maybe the focus issue could be solved by a third party manufacturer when using still lenses. Could not passive focusing be used on the output data? And then get perfect focus using berger motor control. This is a better option for me (or indeed a handy tool that would be used in conjunction with 1:1 focusing - for instance in low contrast settings) If someone could adapt the technology currently employed in still photography to say an external touch screen monitor then anywhere in frame could be put into exact focus within seconds 80-90% of the time. This method would handle most ENG work and also be a valuable asset to low budget shooting and indeed an extra handy tool for ac's everywhere "up the ladder" (except those one's unwilling to stray from traditional methodologies *cough*). I don't know if canon or nikon would give you the algorithms to achieve this or you would need to rewrite them specifically for red. In any case a group buy could get a coder on the job or an intelligent software design company can make $$$ out of such an add on. So the workflow would go something like this: monitor out to tablet touchscreen pc with hd screen. contrast algorithms processed in pc when ac touches certain points on the touch screen >information sent to Birger (or Birger like) devise via bluetooth to autofocus internal motor on still lens > lens adjusts its focus.
Have a look at how passive focusing works in dslr's to further understand.
 
I'm really curious about the image enhancements to build 16. Are we still going to see it in plenty of time before NAB?
 
Release before NAB. Not sure what "plenty of time before" means...

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Release before NAB. Not sure what "plenty of time before" means...

Jim
Click to expand...

Well technically I guess today would constitute the earliest "plenty of time". "Before NAB" could be as late as April 13 or 14? :huh:

So, sometime in the next two weeks. Cool.
 
Before NAB for 15 or 16? Im really anxious to find out when's 15 coming out of beta since IO have a shooting next week where Ill need the multi-output capability.
 
I second that... We need 15 to come out of beta. Going back to 13 is not an option for commercial shoots. Clients demand having a tap image, and I must operate with the LCD.

Chris Bell
 
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